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Wednesday, 7 September 2016

The Vatican and the SSPX: Show me the money!

Image result for vatican gold

Bishop Bernard Fellay of the Society of St. Pius X gave a talk in August which can be viewed on Rorate  Caeli. A number of bloggers have commented on what Fellay says. Some have opined that it is a "trap."

Having listened to the entirety of the two videos, there is a takeaway that deserves some thought.

The Church is in a grave crisis, there are good men left in the Vatican, they see the SSPX as a lifeline and that they hold the true faith as it was always taught. The Society has friends that it did not have a decade ago, it has allies. 

An offer of a Personal Prelature is apparently on the table. Much has been made about this and what it would entail and what they would or would not need to accept relating to the Second Vatican Council.

Is it a trap?

Here is how we will all know and it is something that I have no doubt, Bishop Fellay and his colleagues are already well aware of.

It's about the money. Period.

The Society is full of it in liquid terms and in land. It has been a good steward of the wealth bequeathed to it and given to it over decades to foster the work of God. The temporal wealth of the Society is what enables the Society to do the spiritual work of educating priests and saving souls. One cannot exist without the other. 

Is Rome, is Francis sincere?

Follow the money.


UPDATE:

Why do I think this is where the rubber meets the road?

We have the example of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate and the open persecution. We see the attack now on contemplative and cloistered nuns. Have we forgotten that the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter was promised a bishop, as just a few examples? Can these men in Rome be trusted? 

I don't know the statutes of the Society, how it is structured, how its property is held in various countries. The danger is in the future make up of a "Board," if you will and the power vested in the Superior General. If the Superior General is compromised by Rome and can appoint the Board of Governors of the Society, will he appoint a Board favourable to him that might eventually vote to follow a path out of step with the foundation of the Society. As long as the Society can maintain its property, it can survive whatever Rome wishes to throw at it. If this Pope, or another in the future tries to force the Society to accept a heretical action or sacrilege, they can continue to resist. If they do not control in perpetuity their assets, then they can be plundered over time in the manner of loading them, and all traditionalists, on a boat and then try to sink it. Rome must have no ability to seize their seminaries or chapels or schools. If that is not guaranteed, then we will know Rome's true intention.

One more point. On Hilary White's blog, What's up, S. Armaticus of Deus, ex machina has left a comment. He writes:
"And finally, I think you and all of your readers need to get ready. The finally battle is approaching. Francis will recognize the SSPX unilaterally. And that is when the defecation will hit the oscillating device." 
This is the great danger. That one morning he wakes up and just "does it." As full, complete and universal authority is vested in him, if he does this, without an agreement, the Society is in a position to be formally declared schismatic because they will be forced to submit without security, without clarity of the issues. They, and all those who attend there and support them, will be considered schismatic and their work will be severely affected. It would be an act on the part of Rome of great error and will, in my view, unleash a heavenly fury. Maybe this is what is necessary. 

It is my view, and it has been for a while. that ++Marcel Lefebvre was wrongly "excommunicated," that he was acting, in good conscience, in a "state of emergency." It is further my view, that he was the instrument of God, the Holy Spirit, the fruit has shown this to be obvious. One day, he will be declared a Blessed. 

If we find that the Vatican is pre
pared to make a deal with the Society of St. Pius X that allows the Society to maintain full and complete control over their assets in perpetuity then Rome's motivation is just and good. If there is any reason on the part of Bishop Fellay to believe otherwise, then he must not sign any agreement and continue on in the current situation until God's good time and a truly Catholic pope.

That's it folks.

Show me the money!

45 comments:

Brian said...

The Saint in your sidebar, Pope St. Pius X, identified and defined Modernism and the existential threat it posed to his day and to ours. It is the most pervasive, evil, implacable, lethal threat ever known in Church history. The "synthesis" of all heresy.. He predicted 100 years ago those evil, heretical forces were present in his day and were aiming to infiltrate and take over soon the highest Offices of Holy Mother Church. His Papacy stands as a prophetic warning to not fall asleep.

IF one believes that a Modernist NOW sits on the Seat of St. Peter, and also occupy other Offices of power and influence in Rome, and the Modernist takeover is well on its way or fully complete, then one should act accordingly: as in a war zone.

IF a Papal Modernist is making a deal with perhaps the last purely Orthodox group in the world, then I naturally mistrust the deal on those terms alone. Modernists have one, singleminded aim; the overthrow of Jesus Christ and orthodox Catholic faith. That task is now almost complete. I would fully expect them to continue attack on multiple fronts to reduce to cinders any remaining faithful opposition to their aims. Bishops; Religious; SSPX. One by one they fall into intimidated and overthrown silence.

I sincerely hope and pray the SSPX does not reconcile UNTIL a Pope faithful to Magisterial Truths reigns on Peter's Seat. The SSPX should reconcile with a Pope and a Church that is of one mind on essential Truth. Until then, such a deal is fatal to orthodoxy BY ITS NATURE.

Ana Milan said...

As PF wants a poor church for the poor it would completely contradict this intention if he were to offer a Personal Prelature to the SSPX just to get hold of their money, wouldn't it? (Sarcasm)

Greg J Ben said...

Everything on planet earth is about MONEY.

There is no god but Money.

Everything is done for, because and with Money.

Those who believe in moral values are ridiculed, mocked, insulted and assaulted.

The Catholic Church chose to please the world because of Money.

Karl Rahner Jr. said...

We will believe it when we see it. If it happens it will make all the torture of a Francis papacy worth it.

Anonymous said...

https://mundabor.wordpress.com/2016/09/07/corruptio-optimi-pessima-has-the-smoke-of-satan-entered-the-sspx/#comment-26862

Johnno said...

I'm sure Pope Francis' dear friend and pervert Msgr. Ricca is drafting the bank account details as we speak.

Mark Thomas said...

Vox said..."If there is any reason on the part of Bishop Fellay to believe otherwise, then he must not sign any agreement and continue on in the current situation until God's good time and a truly Catholic pope."

Vox, how would a Pope need to speak and act to convince you that he is a "truly" Catholic Pope?

Thank you.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Barnum said...

How exactly would the Vatican control the SSPX assets? Are you saying SSPX would have to sign them over? Then why don't the religious orders do this? Why hasn't the Vatican seized the assets of the Personal Prelature of the Opus Dei yet? I'm sorry, say what you like about the aims of the guys in the black mitres, but I don't see how it is about the money (liquid assets) or real estate (nonliquid assets).

Dan said...

I don't think this is about money. I think pride and love of praise makes the Pope want every group, denomination, sect, cult, believer, non-believer, adulterer, sodomite, politician, and celebrity to join HIS vision of the church.

philipjohnson said...

Sspx.Dont trust Papa Franco-i wouldn't take an ice-cream from this man!It is a trap especially after his history of heretical statements and his -much vaunted-hatred of The Catholic Faith.

Vox Cantoris said...

Dan, you may be right. That is certainly one possibility, that Francis just wants a coat of many colours, a big tent, here comes everyone. A little for you, a little for me. Let's get the Lutherans in without repentance and conversion and let's throw a bone to the radmadungladtrads.

If not that, then why does Francis seem to want this?

Or is he being dragged kicking and screaming by the Holy Ghost!

That too, is a possibility.

Vox Cantoris said...

Mark,

I'm not going down that rabbit hole.

Vox

Vox Cantoris said...

Barnum, I'll give my thoughts in the post as an update.

Gertrude said...

Please God Bishop Fellay will be aware of wily old Jesuits who can resist nothing less than total control of anything they wish to subjugate.

Vox Cantoris said...

Gertrude, remember this?

"Be as wise as serpents and as gentle as a dove."

That, is +Bernard Fellay.

Pray for him.

NO D said...

The just acts of a sinful pope - even if his sin be patently obvious in material heresy - are still just and the acts of a pope. So too the unjust acts of a holy pope - especially if his holiness be witnessed as formally favoured by heaven - they remain unjust even though he acts as pope. What then of those who are given approval of their holy, sincere, just, and faithful acts of witness to the Faith by an sinful pope .. do his sins invalidate that just act - simply because he is a terrifying sinful man, acting in the office of pope (and in a time of grave confusion over the papacy)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHaizmIj3ck

As VC rightly points out, should the allotted leader of the SSPX perceive any moral or faithful reason to doubt the justice of the acts of this pope (or any other), he should hold back, justly, from fitting in with the pope's injustice - regardless of the pope's state of grace. However, also regardless of the pope's state of grace, if the pope's act is in and of itself just, the leader of the SSPX (or anyone else) would have not just (or justifiable) reason to hold back from it. And that is the only truly just consideration that the SSPX, its leadership, or those who wish it well(or ill) must take into account substantively (the accidentals of appearance offer quite a different kettle of fish); if it is a just act (by a sinning pope, and one elevated in contentious circumstances) then there should be no (or few) conscientious qualms, only sufficient care taken over its righteous application ..

Michael Dowd said...

Agree with you Vox. SSPX must control their own assets and not place them in the Vatican Bank where they would likely be appropriated in some clever way. The other thing is SSPX must be able to name it's superior without Papal concurrence. If at some in the future after Vatican II was declared ruinous to the Church, steps could be taken for additional integration of SSPX with Rome.

Connecticut Catholic Corner said...

I don't really think its about money - the Germany churches are where the real money is.

I believe its the priest shortage and a bit of prophecy being fulfilled that a small remnant of the Church will be found to have kept the faith (the original faith) going.

Anyway, you should watch all 6 videos, not just the two mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZAyK-nfVCIdn1gLsCXGIkg

Vox Cantoris said...

But how the Vatican allows the Society to protect its assets will reveal its true intentions.

Anonymous said...

DO NOT TRUST Pope Jorge Bergoglio ever...ever...never. I repeat never ever trust him!

Mike Hurcum said...

look at the comment of the first papal appointee to the FFI. one from the self impoverished pension fund of the Franciscans.
" I cannot access their funds it is in a trust fund administered by the family of the founder. Hope God the SSPX follows that route and then see if the personal prelature is still available




Anonymous said...

Whether or not Pope Francis is a good pope or bad is beside the point. The church has had far worse (many popes in centuries past were so scandalous it's surprising the church survived their leadership). Marcel Lefebvre was a holy man, but he was not pope, and he has been dead for 25 years. The world and the church continually change, and Marcel Lefebvre is not the measure of what is Catholic and what isn't, no matter how holy or well intentioned. He also had many flaws and inconsistencies and flip-flopped on many issues over the years. I say this as someone who loved him and have the highest respect for him. SSPX has been in an irregular canonical situation for 40 years. If they are Catholic as they claim, and do not have to submit to any formal heresy, then they are obligated to accept and obey the pope. If they do not, they will cross over the they grey area they have been in into formal schism. There is no justification for it. The SSPX is conservative, even far right wing, and has drawn many extremists over the years because of this tendency, which is not of a Catholic spirit. Fellay was complete right to expel Richard Williamson and his ilk. His positions on many things, but especially the Jews, is frankly repulsive and hardly Catholic. SSPX belongs with the formal church structure, otherwise they will drift off into extremist fringe territory, which they Church has never historically tolerated.

Johnno said...

Barnum -

I believe the point is not that they want the SSPX's finances for the sake of money. But for the sake of control.

Opus Dei, is very obedient to the regime. So they are left alone. If Opus Dei ever pulls an SSPX, then they likewise would be vulnerable to the same demands.


Mark Thomas -

How can the Pope prove his Catholic-ness?

Well he can start by Consecrating Russia properly. That's the sign. And only a counter-revolutionary orthodox Pope with complete true humility and faith in God would dare to do so.

Where the SSPX only is concerned, annuling the entire Vatican II experiment by authoritatively ruling it was binding on no one would be another nice start.

Peter Lamb said...

Bergoglio et al want the SSPX to join them because it will enhance their perceived legitimacy. All their power comes from the fact that judeo-masons, or not, they are perceived by millions of Catholics as legitimate Catholic hierarchy. Why Bishop Fellay wants to join the conciliar church is the real question.

Mark Thomas said...

The Rome-SSPX situation is a two-way street. As His Holiness Pope Francis noted to Bishop Fellay, he (Pope Francis) has to deal with many Churchmen who don't trust the SSPX.

Traditionalists wish to portray the situation as a one-way street. The perfect, never-made-a-mistake SSPX, versus big, bad, untrustworthy Rome. But the Church has Her share of clergy, religious, and laity, liberal, conservative, and moderate, who distrust the SSPX as strongly as certain traditionalists distrust Rome.

Those who distrust the SSPX point to the turmoil that exists within the SSPX. Bishop Fellay has fierce critics within the SSPX. They insist that he's a heretic. Outside the SSPX, there are traditionalists who insist the same.

More than a few Catholics are convinced that the SSPX is filled with anti-Semites, heretics, sedevacantists, and bizarre conspiracy theorists.

That, unfortunately, is the image and damage that Bishop Williamson and his ilk inflicted years ago upon the SSPX. Bishop Fellay has acknowledged the massive distrust of the SSPX which, for decades, has existed throughout the Church.

Again, it isn't just liberals who distrust the SSPX. Consider that until late last year, when His Holiness Pope Francis changed the course, for the better, of the SSPX's situation within the Church, leading conservatives, not liberals, but conservatives such as Michael Voris had for years spewed venom at the SSPX.

Here is a typical vicious attack that Michael Voris launched in August 2015 A.D:

http://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/the-vortexdo-not-go-to-mass

He insisted that the SSPX was in schism. He noted that last year, conservative Bishop Robert Morlino issued a letter that instructed the bishop's subjects to shun the SSPX. Father John Zuhlsdorf, a leading conservative, praised and supported Bishop Morlino's letter in question. Support of Michael Voris' claims about the SSPX prevailed among conservatives.

Again, Michael Voris, Bishop Morlino, and Father Zuhlsdorf are conservatives, not radical liberals.

By the way, in the above link, Michael Voris rejected the SSPX's claims that there were bishops who supported the SSPX. He ridiculed that notion.

Michael Voris, as well as fellow conservatives, must have been shocked to their collective core last September when Pope Francis made it clear that he viewed the SSPX as 100 percent Catholic.

Traditionalists can play their "we don't trust Rome" card all day. But far, far, far more, conservatives, liberals, and moderates than traditionalists populate the Church.

Those folks play the "we don't trust the SSPX" card all day...and their card is an ace as they wield far more influence than traditionalists wield within the Church.

Fortunately, thanks to Pope Francis, the time has arrived for both groups to knock off their preposterous "we don't trust..." nonsense. Nobody wins when traditionalists spew venom at Rome while conservatives, liberals, and moderates spew venom at the SSPX.

Pope Francis and Bishop Fellay have made it clear that they trust each other. We need to focus upon that. We need to pray for them, support them, and have confidence in them as they are Peacemakers.

We all lose when we accuse Pope Francis and Bishop Fellay (and the SSPX) of being untrustworthy.

Therefore, let us work to achieve a holy victory over Satan. Let us support Pope Francis and Bishop Fellay as they work to establish the SSPX's rightful place within the True Church.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Michael Dowd said...

Pope Francis would expect SSPX to act the same as Opus Dei, i.e., lab dog and tame junk yard dog, Michael Voris of Bishops bad, Pope good fame.

Mark Thomas said...

Vox said that it is "about the money. Period."

Vox, that may be the case in regard to the earthly realm. That doesn't mean that there aren't Churchmen who are motivated by money. Thirty pieces of silver were involved in Judas' betrayal of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

However, Vox, I am convinced by their actions that untoward motivations do not exist in regard to Pope Francis and Bishop Fellay.

There are fierce traditional, liberal, and conservative critics of Bishop Fellay. He has been accused of playing the "good cop, bad cop" routine to extract money from Catholics attached and/or sympathetic to the SSPX.

That is, when he wants to lift money from people, Bishop Fellay attacks "modernist" Rome. He issues "hardcore", "we will never comprise with the modernists in Rome."

Conversely, to appease those attached to the Society who crave the SSPX's regularization, Bishop Fellay plays the..."The Pope is on our side...we have friends in Rome...we're at a real breakthrough in regard to our discussions with Rome..."

Bishop Fellay's critics insist that he doesn't have any desire to alter the SSPX's status within the Church. They insist that the SSPX is running a money-making scam...one foot within the Church "the Pope says we're Catholic"...one foot in the non-canonical status realm.

Follow the money in regard to Bishop Fellay and the SSPX, according to various critics of Bishop Fellay and the Society.

I don't accept the above claims.

In regard to His Holiness Pope Francis, he is above reproach when it comes to that which motivates him in regard to the SSPX. Bishop Fellay has noted that from the Pope's days in Argentina, His Holiness has been a spiritual father and friend to the SSPX.

Pope Francis, from Argentina to Rome, has always proclaimed that the SSPX is Catholic, according to Bishop Fellay. Pope Francis has declared that he will never condemn the SSPX as he recognizes that the Society is holy, according to Bishop Fellay.

Bishop Fellay insists Pope Francis has z-e-r-o desire to "trap" the SSPX. Bishop Fellay insists that Pope Francis is all about bringing souls to God. In turn, Pope Francis views the SSPX as being all about bringing souls to God.

That is very much behind Pope Francis' determination to regularize the SSPX. Upon their regularization, the SSPX will be positioned to bring far more souls to God than the Society could achieve in its current irregular situation. That is why Pope Francis wishes to reestablish the SSPX's canonical status.

Access to the SSPX's money and property don't play any role in regard to Pope Francis' desire to regularize the SSPX.

Pope Francis is not a scam artist. Bishop Fellay is not a scam artist.

Vox, my brother in Jesus Christ, I don't believe that it is "about the money. Period." Rather, it is about the salvation of souls.

The salvation of souls is of paramount importance to Pope Francis and Bishop Fellay.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Vox Cantoris said...

Mark,

I do hope you're correct.

I did not say it was a "trap." I said that we would know by how the Vatican treats them with regards to their assets.

I agree, that then Cardinal Bergoglio took a magnanimous approach to them.

We'll see.

Maudie N Mandeville said...

How soon would the Francis appointed bishop of the new and improved SSPX start accepting funds from Obama's largesse to 'resettle' muslims and illegals?

Mick Jagger gathers no Mosque said...

The SSPX has no other faithful option than to fully reconcile with Rome and submit to the Pope's universal jurisdiction. No matter what has happened in the Church or what could happen in the church, there is no just reason for a schism, there is n just reason to refuse communion with the Pope and those Catholics in union with him.

Mons Lefebvre created a rival episcopacy (a petit ecclesia really) that has become progressively annealed over time and the SSPX could become the new-orthodox if a deal is not arrived at and questions of money are too far on the materialistic side to be definitive.

Jesus is, has always been, and will continue to be the head of the One True Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church and HE has promised HE will save it.

A Church can not be "saved" by a mons who created a schism and so when some speak about a devilish delusion being present in our time, it does not exclude those who think a schism is the way Jesus would save or conserve His church.

Lord have Mercy.

I was born into the Catholic Church in 1948 when such claims would have been openly derided; what, there is such a thing as a good schism?

I know I am a minority on this point but there is simply no way to avoid imitating Jesus in the garden; we must not let the cup pass us by by fleeing into a schism.

Jesus does not promise us earthly success or happiness - far less money - but He will reward the Faithful who pick up their Cross and only He knows why He is allowing to happen to His Church; as to those who have not been willing to drink the cup we have all been asked to drink?

Good luck to those standing before the Judgment Seat of Christ explaining to Him the goodness/necessity of a schism.

We have to be patient, endure evils, and wait on the Lord.

That is the way to peace on earth and eternal joy in Heaven

lmpivon said...

There is ONLY ONE WAY I would, or SSPX should, accept full communion with Rome, and that is if ROME were to change 100% everything back to the way it was before Vatican II.

If the altars came back, Altar boys only, Priests facing the cross, Rails put back in, liturgy changed back, and the Gregorian chant being a regular part of mass, THEN, I would consider going back to Rome!

Anonymous said...

I don't think that Bp. Fellay has said anything about what would happen to assets held by the SSPX if they were to reconcile, and it's a relevant question. I agree that if Rome allows the SSPX have full control of their assets, then that's a good sign....I think. Still, I don't trust the modernists, especially the Pope.

Yes, there are some members of the hierarchy in Rome who are sympathetic towards the SSPX, and they would like the SSPX to help with the terrible crisis in the Church today. But will they come to the rescue of the SSPX if the Pope treats them like the FFI? Not likely. After all, very few in the hierarchy have been willing to confront the Pope about AL. They are not brave men. They would prefer that the SSPX do their job for them. Not good.

Bishop Fellay still doesn't address the obvious contradiction: the question of prudence regarding the possibility of reconciling with the most extreme modernist pope ever.

It's possible that Bp. Fellay believes what the so-called seer, (Madame Rossiniere)told him....that the SSPX is destined to "save the Church." Perhaps Bp. Fellay believes that this supposed predestination will protect them.

~M. Ray

Mark Thomas said...

Vox said..."I did not say it was a "trap."

That is correct. Vox, I apologize to you if I misrepresented your comments.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vox-permitting, I wanted to post the following yesterday. Vox, the following doesn't pertain to you, as you offered rational comments (I understand your concerns) in regard to Bishop Fellay's address about the Prelature.

A couple of days ago, the story at hand had gained traction on various Traditional blogs. I encountered one outrageous, bizarre comment after another on Traditional blogs. The attacks, vicious to the core, launched against His Holiness Pope Francis and Bishop Fellay were appalling. Utter garbage was hurled at them.

The situation has reached the point at which the "it's a trap, it's a trick" folks can only be viewed and dismissed as irrational people who are not to be taken seriously. Said folks have revealed their true colors.

That is, they simply hate the Holy See and wish to remain separated from Church Authority. They want the Faith, but only on their terms. They have never desired the SSPX's regularization. They want to pretend that they can remain "separated" from Rome while they possess the True Religion.

Woe to Bishop Fellay should he dare to proclaim that Pope Francis wishes to regularize the SSPX. Woe to Bishop Fellay should he proclaim that Pope Francis is determined to offer the SSPX complete freedom to spread the Faith. That is when the irrational "it's a trap, it's a trick" folks reveal their true colors.

The bottom line is that their irrationality disqualifies them as persons to be taken seriously.

Everything about His Holiness Pope Francis' words, and more important, actions, in regard to his dealings with the SSPX point to man who has been sincere in his treatment of the SSPX.

-- During his days in Argentina, the SSPX has reported that he aided them each time that they turned to him for help.

-- During his days in Argentina, SSPX priests went to him to receive blessings, which he administered to them.

-- During his days in Argentina, the SSPX reported that he viewed SSPX priests as holy Catholic priests.

-- During his days in Argentina, the SSPX reported that he declared that the SSPX is 100 percent Catholic.

-- During his days in Argentina, the SSPX reported that he declared that he would never condemn the SSPX.

As His Holiness Pope Francis...

-- The SSPX reported that Pope Francis was instrumental in having assisted the SSPX to gain official recognition by the Argentinian government as members of the Catholic Churh.

-- The SSPX reported that Pope Francis declared that he would never prevent anybody from attaching himself/herself to the SSPX.

-- Pope Francis identified Catholic laymen attached to SSPX chapels as "faithful" Catholics.

-- Pope Francis noted that the SSPX possesses "good faith and sacramental practice."

-- Pope Francis recognized that SSPX Confessions are valid and licit.

-- Pope Francis authorized Bishop Fellay to serve as judge of first instance in regard to canonical matters related to SSPX priests.

-- Pope Francis is determined to place the SSPX into a protective shell akin to a "Super Diocese" to allow the SSPX complete freedom to spread the True Faith throughout the world.

In light of the above undeniable facts, anybody who espouses the notion that Pope Francis "cannot be trusted..."it's a trap, it's a trick," must be dismissed as a person whose claim in question cannot possibly be taken seriously.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Brian said...

Mark,

I am convinced Pope Francis is a Modernist. I am convinced the Church is full of Modernist heretics in High Office, advancing Freemasonic Modernism, heretical, spiritual, poison.

If you read Pascendi Dominici Gregis you find a favorite modus of the Modernist is misdirection: saying one thing while doing another; then saying the other thing while doing the first. Nothing ever quite makes sense. You can't ever quite pin one down. You just somehow always find yourself in decline when under one.

A Catholic is clear and concise and honest. A Modernist is confusing, dissembling and a liar. A healthy Catholic Church is defined by clarity and fervor and unity and consistency. A Modernist Freemasonic church is defined by confusion, lethargy, division, anger and constant change. "By their fruits shall you know them."

IF a Modernist sits on the Seat of Peter, Modernism being the Mother of all Heresy, then WHY would an orthodox group, perhaps the LAST fully orthodox group on earth, make ANY deal with a man and a Church, presently dedicated, by definition, to the group's overthrow? Modernists are at WAR with Orthodoxy!

I do not personally do ANY deals with an enemy. Case closed, for me. Case closed, for SSPX (I hope)!

Mark Thomas said...

Brian, Rome and the SSPX don't "do ANY deals." There isn't any "deal" to be signed by Rome and the SSPX. In fact, there aren't any "negotiations" between Rome and the SSPX.

You may be convinced that His Holiness Pope Francis is a heretic. However, the Holy People of God, who are "anointed as they are by the Holy One, cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole peoples' supernatural discernment in matters of faith when "from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful" they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brian, via the Sacred Mysteries, the entire Church — Church Triumphant, Church Militant, and Church Suffering — expresses Her unwavering belief that Pope Francis is the orthodox Chief Shepherd of the True Church.

When, for example, God's holy priests offer the TLM, they commemorate His Holiness Pope Francis via the Roman Canon. Via the sure and certain prayers of the Roman Canon, God's holy priests express the Church's universal belief that Pope Francis holds "to the truth," and hands "on the Catholic and Apostolic Faith."

The True Church, Triumphant, Militant, and Suffering, is united at that moment in Her commemoration of Pope Francis. At that moment, the Holy People of God are united with God's holy priest as they manifest their belief that Pope Francis holds the "Catholic and Apostolic Faith."

The Faith of the Holy People of God is evident via the commemoration of Pope Francis each time the Church offers Her Sacred Mysteries.

Brian, the Holy People of God testify daily to the belief that Pope Francis is in good standing with the True Church as he holds the "Catholic and Apostolic Faith."

The universal commemoration of His Holiness during the Divine Liturgy constitutes holy testimony to Pope Francis' orthodoxy to which the Holy People of God declare "Amen."

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Joseph D'Hippolito said...

In skimming the comments on this thread, I have one question: What does SSPX get out of all this? They've never needed Papal "approval" before. What tangible material benefits (and I don't necessarily mean monetary) accrue to SSPX?

Anonymous said...

Pope Francis is the first Pope to refuse the red cape ,symbol of his spiritual authority,He is also the first Pope to make himself subject to a state by retaining his Argentinian passport,another denial of Papal Authority,as the Pope is subject to no state .These acts are highly significant ,and explained in an excellent sermon on youtube. Fatima Mission 5: The Third Secret & Conclusion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ-MTCazC8I

Michael Dowd said...

Re Mark Thomas. I am convinced that Vox has too much patience---with you. I lost it some time. Suggest you start your own blog and give us all a break.

Peter Lamb said...

Dear Joseph D'Hippolito, You have asked a very penetrating question, which I have often asked myself. Bear the following in mind:

Archbishop Lefebvre:
He was a good and holy man, but a missionary, not a theologian. He lacked self-confidence and flip-flopped a lot, often being self-contradictory. However, he made many sedevacantist statements, including that the NWO church was not Catholic; that Vatican II was a schismatic Council and that "the Chair of Peter and the positions of authority in Rome are occupied by antichrists." (http://inveritateblog.com/2015/07/29/christ-or-belial/).

Archbishop Lefebvre with regard to SSPX joining the NWO church:
"The Pope is more ecumenical than ever. All Council misconceptions continue to be developed and reaffirming ever more clearly. They hide less and less. It is inconceivable in every way that we can accept collaborate with such a hierarchy."
(Fideliter No. 79, January 1991.)

Q: But there are traditionalists who have made an agreement with Rome without conceding anything.
A: "That is false. They have waived their opportunity to oppose Rome. They must remain silent because of the favors that have been granted. Then they start to slip ever so slowly until they end up admitting the errors of Vatican II. It is a very dangerous situation. Such concessions Roma aim only to get the break with the SSPX traditionalists and submit to Rome."
(Fideliter No. 79, January 1991, shortly before his death in March 1991.)

"Rome has lost the Faith, my dear friends. Rome is in apostasy. These are not words in the air. It is the truth. Rome is in apostasy… They have left the Church… This is sure, sure, sure." (Retreat Conference, September 4, 1987, Ecône)

Father Regis de Cacqueray, SSPX, District Superior of France:
"Pope Francis, like all his predecessors since the Council, is a revolutionary. He is in rupture with the immutable Tradition of the Church and he is teaching in its stead a new doctrine that is poisoning souls."
(http://sspx.org/en/keeping-calm-amid-storm)

Bishop Fellay: Described pope Francis as a "genuine modernist".
(2013 Angelus Conference in Kansas City.)

I have no doubt that had Abp. Lefebvre lived longer and seen what we have seen, he would have formally declared sedevacantism the only true Catholic response to the current situation.
Now let's look at the current SSPX and more especially at Bishop Fellay.
i. Their leaders have rejected the NWO church as false and manned by an heretical hierarchy.(Above quotes.)
ii. Their ecclesiology, especially with regard to the Papacy, is ludicrous, novel, without foundation in and contrary to Catholic doctrine.
iii. They pray in unity with acknowledged heretics, which is absolutely forbidden by the Catholic Church.
iv. The money for Econe came from the jews (Rothchilds.)

THERE IS NO LOGICAL, CATHOLIC REASON FOR THEM TO SEEK UNION WITH THE CHURCH OF LUCIFER WHICH THEY RECOGNIZE AS SUCH!

I believe that Bp. Fellay serves as CONTROLLED OPPOSITION.
i. He neither joins the NWO church, nor severs the SSPX from it. He dithers along indefinitely - thus keeping many traditional Catholics WITHIN THE AMBIT of the NWO church.
ii. He recognizes the heretical antipopes as true Popes, thus affording respectability and huge power to them in the eyes of millions. The SSPX, I predict, will NEVER join Rome. The search for unity is a sham. The pretense of orthodoxy keeps all those traditional Catholics in the SSPX. Those traditionalist would leave the SSPX in droves, if the SSPX was seen as part of the NWO church, which would gradually gobble it up anyway, as predicted above by Abp. Lefebvre.
Neither Rome, nor Bp. Fellay would want that to happen. It serves NWO interests much better to maintain the status quo. The NWO church receives recognition as the Catholic Church; Bergoglio receives recognition as a true Pope; The SSPX continues to serve as controlled opposition, thus keeping all those trads in the ambit of the NWO. I'll bet you a sixpack, union will never occur.

Brian said...

Peter Lamb,

Thanks for that long list of facts.

It may be hard to see the way at times, and it is especially discouraging when our shepherds and guides are leading us into bramble patches, but the path is always sure if we remain committed to the "straight and narrow" no matter the cost or opposition.

The path is Tradition. Tradition has its source in Jesus on Calvary, and ends in Jesus in eternity. Guides may leave the path. Even the Pope may leave the path. But we must always remain true to the path; the earthly struggle to find and keep Jesus,. We need not remain true to any particular guide if they are not true to the path. The Office of Peter is guaranteed over time and in eternity, but it is not a guarantee to every single occupant; who are human after all, with free will to follow .... Or betray. Just like us all.

Each Pope can choose the path of betrayal; the path of Judas. If they do, we are not obligated to follow them. We should rather correct them and exhort them to get out of the brambles and remain always on the path.

Michael Dowd said...

Peter Lamb: Good thinking: "I believe that Bp. Fellay serves as CONTROLLED OPPOSITION.
i. He neither joins the NWO church, nor severs the SSPX from it. He dithers along indefinitely - thus keeping many traditional Catholics WITHIN THE AMBIT of the NWO church."

For the Pope this is a good deal. Have a "crazy" opposition but insignificant opposition like SSPX makes him look good to the rest of the world. Once SSPX gets larger as the NWO Church gets smaller his attitude would change. But this will take at least another 20 years. He will be dead and there will be Francis II to deal with.

Brian said...

And to briefly complete the analogy:

The SSPX objectively have their feet firmly planted on the path of Tradition.

The modern Church objectively have left the path of Tradition and are firmly planted in the brambles of innovation and Revolution.

This they both freely admit.

Reconciliation should only occur when the modern Church has returned to the path of Tradition. SSPX should insist on this. And we are back again to the root cause of the ongoing division.

It would be a magnificent disaster if SSPX left the Way.

Peter Lamb said...

Dear Mike, Time will tell. :)

Peter Lamb said...

Dear Brian, You always have great points in your comments. "The path is Tradition. Tradition has its source in Jesus on Calvary, and ends in Jesus in eternity." Amen!

" Even the Pope may leave the path... The Office of Peter is guaranteed over time and in eternity, but it is not a guarantee to every single occupant; who are human after all, with free will to follow .... Or betray. Just like us all."

It is true the Pope is a man and as such, has free will. As a private individual he may certainly become an heretic, but that he can notoriously (publicly) preach heresy to the Universal Church, in his capacity as Pope, is impossible:
i. It is dogma that the Holy Ghost will always guide Christ's Church in His Truth. Therefore, the Holy Ghost would not/cannot allow the Pope to depart from the Truth in his functions of teaching, sanctifying, or governing Christ's Church. If a Pope tried that, the Holy Ghost would strike him dumb, or dead. This is the basis of the dogmas of the Indefectibility and Infallibility of the Catholic Church.
ii. To illustrate the point: There has never been an heretical Pope in the history of the Church, before Vatican II. This is the teaching of Vatican I and St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church. Even the worst of the bad Popes never taught heresy to the Church - whatever else they did.
iii. The Church teaches that an heretic is ipso facto, automatically severed from the Church and any authority he might have, by the sin of heresy, in terms of Divine Law. IF, IF, IF, a true Pope could become a notorius heretic, he would immediately cease to be a formal Pope. He who is not a Member, cannot be Head. Of course an heretic (non-Catholic) cannot become Pope. The Pope must be a Catholic who professes the Catholic Faith.

Brian said...

Peter Lamb,

Thanks. Again, I appreciate the facts. I agree. Don't fully know how to apply that to this, but who really does with full certainty?

Perhaps that is why there is not a single Bishop or Cardinal in the entire world willing to risk schism and point out such a thing. Just ongoing "departure from truth" on multiple fronts at the bedrock level of our Faith. And silence. And Bishops we thought saw what we see strongly insisting they will not risk schism to stop any of it.

Perhaps God's wrath is upon us, men's hearts are being hardened, and eyes blinded, in preparation for the judgement and unthinkable things that are now in play, coming quickly our way.

I would expect even just a small voice of opposition and faithfulness. No. Nothing. Not even from the SSPX; not commensurate to the emergency. I am puzzled and left scratching my rapidly balding head.