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Thursday 24 August 2017

The Novus Ordo is "irreversible?" Sorry Jorge, you do not get the last word!

Pope Francis addresses participants in Italy's National Liturgical Week. - AP
In a catechesis on the liturgy, the man who violated liturgical law consistently in Buenos Aires and then, dispensing with it for himself once elected Bishop of Rome, has said not only that the liturgical revolution of Montini and Bugnini is "irreversible" but he bemoans "those practices which disfigure it." 

For years, as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, Jorge Bergoglio washed the feet of women on Holy Thursday the rubrics were clearly laid out and not changed after Vatican II, as "viri" - men! He continues that what Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre called the "bastard rite," is here to stay.

He has even said that it is "magisterial" that the modernist rite's existence is "irreversible." 

That's rich, really rich. Who can believe this man with this preposterous nonsense? Quo Primum was irreversible too, right? But you see, they knew they could not change the Mass as per Quo Primum, so they didn't. They simply set it aside and created a bastard in its place. If that could be done, then this rotten fruit of Montini and Bugnini can be trodden under foot into the dirt where it belongs.

He can opine on this matter all he wants, I can opine too. The fruit is there for all to see, rotten, bug-infested, spoilt fruit. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

The Novus Ordo Missae, in its current form, was never called for by the Second Vatican Council. The reforms, which actually began under Pius XII and which many today decry, were essentially met in the 1965 edition of the Roman Missal, a vernacular "Liturgy of the Word," followed by the retention of Latin from the Offertory throughout the Roman Canon with Propers intact and simplified rubrics without the removal of certain "repetitions." What was missing, was the debatable reformed Lectionary.

Those who believe that the current "Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite," is the Mass as it was anticipated by the Council Fathers are simply ignorant or malicious. Historical fact proves otherwise. Yet, nearly every one of those Council Fathers who booed and hissed poor Cardinal Ottoviani and then cheered the insult of a shut-off microphone, all went along with it. Their actions in those early days of October 1963 have lead to the virtual collapse of Catholicism in Europe, the Americas and nearly everywhere in Oceania. Africa is the one where the faith is not in retreat.

When the churches of France continue to empty, and priests continue to die, the only ones left will be those of the traditional Orders. Vocations, since 2013, are down in most parts of the world. The Novus Ordo Mass, while valid under the usual conditions, is an abomination. It strains credulity and tortures the mind when one tries to square the circle that the Holy Spirit of God is the culprit behind a liturgy that virtually eliminates the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity from the ritual, and rebukes 1600 years of organic liturgical worship. It is a blasphemy to even think that the Holy Spirit of the Triune God actively willed the disaster of the modernists-masonic rite and the evil work that came out of the Second Vatican Council.

The proof in the rightness of the Latin Rite in its solemn fullness is to compare it with the solemnity of the Byzantine, Alexandrian and Syriac Churches. The Novus Ordo is a pale shell of the sacred rite and an insult to the ancient liturgies of the Ethiopians and Copts, and the Syriacs, - Maronites, (except those silly enough to want to be Latinised). Persians, Syro-Malabars and Malankars and the Byzantines - Ukrainians, Ruthenians and Melkites.

The Novus Ordo Mass along with the Novus Ordo "church" is in a free-fall collapse. Bergoglio of Rome can continue the party line but it does not hide the truth. The Catholic world is in full apostasy and it began at the top. This man-centered "church" will collapse along with its bastard rite. What will remain are those faithful Catholics who will not renounce the faith of their fathers and those Catholics whose eyes will be opened.

The future is in tradition and it is the opinion of this writer that the Holy Spirit of God was acting through Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre to maintain the liturgy and the faith until such time as the rest of the Church finds its way to wake up from the drunken stupor which it has found itself in and kicks out the whore with whom it has fornicated.


Aged parent said...

Which of the 2,749 versions of the new Mass does he consider "irreversible" ?

Kathleen1031 said...

Oh, may it be so.
I know EWTN is a capitulator to this papacy, but it is instructive to see the comments on that site. One can't help but notice the most people, particularly those with names that seem to indicate they have a Latino heritage, champion this pope and don't seem to notice a thing wrong with this man's words or actions.
Our local bishop refers to him as the Holy Vicar of Christ, and even that is hard to take. What a stunning thing, to be nauseated by a bishop referring to a pope in that way. Where on earth are we that this is the case. Admonitions to listen to Pope Francis and take in more immigrants, and stunning, to me anyway, is our bishop's advice that "one does not have to open the door to ICE enforcement officers". This is our BISHOP, encouraging illegal immigrants to resist officers. This church simply cannot be viable. Do these men care at all about Catholics? Do they not notice the rapes, the attacks, the problems? It is a scandal, entirely.
We have been faithful, practicing Catholics, or have tried to be, surely failing in many ways, but we will not support this version of the Roman Catholic Church. This is a false church, and one does not need to be a theologian to know it. Simply to use the spiritual discernment God gave us, and simple logic and reasoning can help one to know this papacy and church is poison and it would be wrong and dangerous to support it in any way.
May God deliver us from it soon.

Justina said...

Whatever happened to the "god of surprises"? Either there is no such person, because evidently no further "surprises" will be possible after Jorge Bergoglio has gone on to his eternal reward, or else Jorge Bergoglio feels that he himself IS that "god."

Irenaeus said...

I can't believe I'm saying this, but let the bastard rite die. Mon Dieu, don't abandon your Church. It knows not what it does. Forgive your Bride. *sheds a tear* *bustles off to the closest Latin Mass*

Anonymous said...

Even my toes are laughing. Chill, ladies and gentlemen, and don't get so upset over PF's antics. He is a through and through product of a hijacked Council. This is a rare not-to-be-missed phenomenon. No wonder Jesus after His resurrection at the beach had to ask Peter His first Vicar, if he loved him three times to confirm his office. He surely forsaw how heartbreaking Peter's successors could be.

Johnno said...

Good. We can then stop wasting time on any 'reform of the reform of the deform' initiatives.

I guess then that the other joint Eucharist service Francis has in the works for the Prots is going to be a 3rd rite missal of Bergolio?

Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...

Maybe and finally people will understand, what they so rebel to do before:


Julia Augusta said...

I came back to the Catholic Church after 41 years away, the last 17 of which was spent practicing Buddhism. When I came back to the Church last March, I started looking for online sites to refresh my memory of Cathechism and to assist me in preparing for Confession. I immediately gravitated to traditional Catholic websites and began to attend Latin Masses. I cannot stand the Novus Ordo. Something is so deeply wrong with it, notably, the absence of the Mystery, the Spirit. It is a banal, vulgar rite. Like most things that were innovations of the 1960s (concrete block apartment towers, bell bottom jeans and tie dye shirts), the Novus Ordo Mass will fall away. But we have to keep praying and praying! I pray the Rosary everyday (in Latin) and ask our Lady to help us worship our Lord again in the beautiful way we used to worship him for centuries.

What can we ordinary laity do? First, start immersing ourselves in the traditions of the Church. I committed myself to saying the Rosary in Latin as part of my return to the Faith. Now I am memorizing other prayers in Latin. Second, listen to Gregorian chants and read about it. You can find these chants on YouTube and stream it. Third, please realize how weird the Novus Ordo clergy are. In Buddhist countries like Japan and Bhutan, the Buddhist monks have not modernized much of their practices. In fact, keeping the traditional chants and practices is their way of maintaining the direct lineage to the Buddha. Lineage is very important and the chants are very old indeed. No guitar sessions, no "innovations" in meditation methods.

As for the American Catholic Church pandering to illegal immigrants: this is a way for the bishops to increase the flock in America since so many Americans have stopped going to Church. In addition, liberation theology hasn't completely died out. Many clergy (mercifully they're old Sixties types so they won't be around much longer) still cling to it.

Keep praying my friends! The Novus Ordo clergy are cornered and defensive - that's why Bergoglio keeps making more and more heretical and desperate pronouncements. They can see that young Catholics, new converts and people like me, Catholics who have come back after decades away, have rejected the Novus Ordo Mass.

Peter Lamb said...

"This chair [of Peter] is the center of Catholic truth and unity, that is, the head, mother, and teacher of all the Churches to which all honor and obedience must be offered... Be vigilant in act and word, so that the faithful may grow in love for this Holy See, venerate it, and accept it with complete obedience; they should execute whatever the See itself teaches, determines, and decrees.
(Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Inter Multiplices, nn. 1,7)

Union with the Roman See of Peter is ... always the public criterion of a Catholic. “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held”.
(Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Satis Cognitum, n. 13)

"For in the apostolic see the catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honour... For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles. (Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Pastor Aeternus, Ch. 4)

"...it is an absolute necessity for the simple faithful to submit in mind and heart to their own pastors, and for the latter to submit with them to the Head and Supreme Pastor."
(Pope Leo XIII, Letter Epistola Tua to Cardinal Guibert, June 17, 1885; excerpted in Papal Teachings: The Church, p. 263.

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
(Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302.

"And the man who abandons the See of Peter can only be falsely confident that he is in the Church." (Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Quartus Supra, n. 8.)

"For it is impossible for a man ever to reject any portion of the Catholic faith without abandoning the authority of the Roman Church."
(Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Nostis et Nobiscum, nn. 16-17.)

Guys, let's get serious. I know I'm a cracked record, but that's the way it is. Those who skipped the quotes - pleeese go back and read them. They are infallible pronouncements of true Catholic Magisterium. That is the Holy Ghost talking. Submit and obey, or face the consequences.

You cannot call bergoglio true Pope and then disobey his teaching, or refuse your submission to him who speaks under the guidance of the Holy Ghost and with the authority of Christ. Please again see above.
Life is tough. You don't get to have your cake and eat it. There is no such thing in Catholicism as recognizing and resisting a true Pope. Stand up and admit it.

If bergoglio is your true Pope - submit and obey!
If you know bergoglio to be an heretic - Catholic doctrine instructs you that he cannot be a true Pope and Holy Scripture commands you to let him be anathema! Each one of us will one day look into Christ's eyes and answer for our actions today. You better be sure it's OK to recognize and resist him whom you call a true Pope. And remember Salza and Bishop Fellay won't be there to back you up.

Anonymous said...

This evil man does not recognize God's Law - he creates his own.

Michael Dowd said...

Thanks Vox. Both the Novus Ordo Mass and the entirety of Vatican II needs to go into the garbage heap of Catholic history. There is nothing left in this misbegotten bathwater but dirt. It all has to go. It was inspired not by the Holy Spirit but the devil himself.

Julia Augusta said...

Bergoglio is not a true pope. He is a heretic. Period.

Rab said...

This is a good summary of what is going on. The heart of spiritual life, holy Liturgy of Mass, has been ripped out and replaced by an unworthy fabrication. I only have Novus Ordo and heretic shepherds available. My spiritual life is greatly suffering. Basically, all I have left is my weak prayer and orthodox bloggers. So, thank you, Mr. Vox.

MEwbank said...

'The Novus Ordo Missae, in its current form, was never called for by the Second Vatican Council. The reforms, which actually began under Pius XII and which many today decry, were essentially met in the 1965 edition of the Roman Missal, a vernacular "Liturgy of the Word," followed by the retention of Latin from the Offertory throughout the Roman Canon with Propers intact and simplified rubrics without the removal of certain "repetitions." What was missing, was the debatable reformed Lectionary.'

This is one of the most balanced, brief synopses I have read in quite a while concerning what actually was intended by the most liturgically informed participants at Vatican II.

The only additional remark I would add is that this objective should have been bonded with a pastoral insistence that said manner of celebrating the existent Roman Liturgy should always co-exist with the pre-Conciliar rubrics wherever such was desired.

Anonymous said...

thank you Peter Lamb for taking the trouble to explain to us again how we should establish our position in this chaos.

However, there's another perspective, that is: God's chosen Bergoglio for the horrid task of exposing what's wrong within the Church. It's getting clearer and clearer.

He could still be working for our Lord, for when the day comes, angels will separate wheat from chaff, and Bergoglio would've done the job of letting us choose the group where we want to be.


Anonymous said...

We've all been missing something very important and it has to do with this sentence from the above article:

"...all went along with it. Their actions in those early days of October 1963 have lead to...."

ALL went along with it. Actually no, not all signed the documents, but most did - including Lefebvre and Thuc. They APOSTASIZED from the Faith. Lost the Faith. Became notorious and very public heretics. Ipso facto excommunicated from the Catholic Church. This invalidates ALL future actions, according to Papal teachings.

There are procedures to remove censures and receive an heretic BACK into the Church (and we're all heretics). Who lifted their censures when all we've had are false (heretical) Popes? As the teachings show in the comments above, an heretic CANNOT be raised to the Pontificate, much less any Freemason.

"The Church will be in Eclipse."

This is the French Revolution in the Church, but an important part of that history is ignored or forgotten and wiped from the historical accounts: the TRUE Catholics, rather than violate the Law by attending Sacraments offered by those who were not SENT by the Pope, stayed HOME and KEPT THE FAITH.

Can't be done? The Japanese without priests for 250 years were found to have done exactly that and very well.

We are much, much deeper and further into things than people are realizing, or even willing to realize.


Ana Milan said...

It's PF that's irreversible & should be corrected without further delay & the CC brought back to Tradition. This centenary year of Fatima is just the time to set things aright. Our Lady will support us.

Kathleen1031 said...

Julia Augusta, I believe once upon a time the Bishops were perhaps thinking that immigrants would fill the church as newcomers, but that no longer is the case. Most immigrant families don't put enough in the basket to offset the decline in numbers, and they probably tap the system in other ways as well.
It is that the Catholic Church now gets millions and millions of dollars, or they did under Obama anyway, to bring in more and more immigrants. This is wanted money, and needed money, and it is clear the Bishops have sold out the actual faith for the cha-ching of government subsidies. I don't know if this continues, but going by the relentless clamor of these sycophant bishops for immigration, it probably is. I do wish President Trump would shut the taps off. I really resent the pope and the bishops for this. This is a political operation and our church and pope have no business promoting this and getting paid like harlots for it. Not only that, but they are creating very real hazards and demonstrated threats to citizens of the nations of the West, and they don't appear to give a tinker's dam about that. Again, this gives me no pleasure to say, but it is reality.

Anonymous said...


For all you "lost" Trad Catholics, I suggest you look up your nearby (I hope) SSPX Chapel and get on over to the Pre-Vatican II Latin Mass. We did 20 years ago and have never looked back. We are 76 years old and at peace with our choice. Try it out. You mivght it too. Go to: www.sspx.org . God bless.

h u h said...

Was the Dominus Ac Redemptor reversible? never mind that.

Can the result of an irreversible reformation be object of further reformation? Yes it can. Why do I say so? Because I am pretty sure further reformation will come, by none other than our beloved Pope Francis.

Anonymous said...

h u h at 4:25
You are 100% correct! That's exactly why Bergoglio is giving this "catechesis" on the liturgy. He has his boys making the changes to the NO that will make it invalid, in all cases.

Kathleen1031 said...

I wish we had SSPX in our area, since we are attending the Latin Rite but realizing we are still financially supporting this horrible Francis Church, which is throwing us a bone with the Latin Mass.
There is no SSPX in our area.

Peter Lamb said...

Dear Mary, You are so correct:
"For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way. And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him, Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
—St. Paul the Apostle (2 Thess 2:7-11)

Sin against the Holy Ghost:
"... But whatever the reason for the obstinate refusal to admit the known truth, the law of cause and effect cannot be broken ... hence it follows that actions must have proportionate consequences. And what are the consequences of rejecting the known truth?

The first is quite dire, and I believe in some instances gives the reason for such obstinacy: Resisting the known truth is a sin against the Holy Ghost and thus deprives the soul of His grace necessary to adhere to the truth with constancy and fortitude.

Second, by grieving the Holy Ghost, by opposing the known truth, God is justified in allowing that person to fall into error, often the very error they think they are opposing. This is especially true of Modernism, which is not so much a single error but the operation of error, since it does not deny a single truth but the very existence of objective truth.

"Hence ... those who obstinately defend Modernists eventually fall into Modernism themselves. How? By rejecting the true Catholic definition of the Papacy and inventing a pseudo-Papacy to their own liking. Something right out of Disneyland. It is thus they can call someone a true Pope and yet act as if they must resist him in faith, morals, government and worship to save their own souls. Do they really believe Christ instituted a Papacy which we must resist to save our souls? This is insanity, indeed blasphemy.


Anonymous said...

"... I suggest you look up your nearby (I hope) SSPX Chapel ..."

Bishop Fellay, superior General of SSPX, has compromised with Vatican II. Unlike Archbishop Lefebvre (ABL), he has decided to sign certain agreements which have resulted in SSPX turning Indult like the FSSP. The Priests in SSPX, like FSSP, cannot speak about the errors of Vatican II and also have begun concelebrating masses with Vatican II priests. This is not the line of ABL, who kept reiterating, no deal with Rome unless Rome comes back to Tradition and the Faith. If you have any doubts, ask any SSPX Priest to speak about the errors of Vatican II from the pulpit. Ave Maria.

Maudie N Mandeville said...

The Diocese of Portsmouth, England, will have 14 seminarians at the start of the new academic year, the highest number of seminarians in living memory, writes the Catholic Herald. Not surprisingly, Portsmouth Bishop Philip Egan is not part of the secular-liberal wing of bishops close to Pope Francis. In April he stated that Amoris Laetitia does not allow divorcees to receive Communion.

'Not surprisingly....' Heh heh.

Anonymous said...


Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosque said...

Dear Vox. Ecclesiastical Law can be changed by any Pope, even Pope Francis.

That is, Quo Primus was ecclesiastical law and Pope Pius V could not, and did not, bind any future Pope in such matters.

Here is the testimony of a sede on that point...


Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosque said...

Dear Dr. Lamb. Hear St. Robert Bellarmine: The Church is the visible society of the validly baptised faithful, united in one organic body by the profession of the same Christian faith, by participation of the same Sacrifice, and the same seven sacraments, under the authority of the Sovereign Pontiff and the bishops in communion with him.

Thus, our sedevacantist friends are not in the Church and we must pray they return before they die and stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to answer for their perfidy.

ABS has never had to refuse one single thing that he has been ordered to do by Pope Francis and so you are completely confused. Go on, tell ABS what Pope Francis has ordered ABS to do...

Repent brother, while you still have time.

Anonymous said...

Bergoglio has had his reward - let him fall into his whited sepulchre on Sept 13 - the next Fatima date - which coincides with a Wednesday audience!

Peter Lamb said...

ABS, bergoglio is not Pope formaliter and the novus ordo church is not the Catholic Church. Please do not address me again. I find talking to you unpleasant and a waste of time.

Irenaeus said...

It's things like this that make sedevacantism quite tempting. But no. I will not go there.

Peter Lamb said...

Dear Irenaeus, Never say never! In fact I'll put a six-pack on you, as I have on Vox. :)

Anonymous said...


"That is, Quo Primus was ecclesiastical law and Pope Pius V could not, and did not, bind any future Pope in such matters. Here is the testimony of a sede on that point...

Fr. Cekada’s views in his article on Quidlibet cannot be taken to mean a Pope can change any ecclesiastical law per his wishes. For example, can the Pope change ecclesiastical law to allow Women Priests?

Even if Sedevacantists say that a "true" Pope can change ecclesiastical law, they know that there are limits to what changes a "true" Pope can rightfully make.

Without going into specifics, roughly, for the Sedevacantists, the instant a “true” Pope breaks these limits, he ipso facto becomes a “false” Pope. Some amongst that flock may go so far as to say that the Pope was never “true” to begin with.

Whichever camp you belong to (Novus Ordo, Sedevacantist, …), Quo Primum is still binding. Even the Popes post-Vatican II know this, as does Fr. Cekada.

Odysseus said...

I am Novus-Ordo raised but have spent the last 12 years in and out of tradition. I always considered sedevacantists to be wackos and gave them little attention.

I have come to two conclusions, though.

While I am not capable of discerning whether the Paul VI or John the 23rd were "real" popes or not, it is obvious that the chair is empty now. Even outsiders can see that Francis is not a Catholic. It's just like a marriage coming apart, with one partner cheating and the whole world can see it but the betrayed spouse keeps thinking that things will turn around someday.

Furthermore, whether the chair is empty or not, it is spiritually safest to act as if it is. To cling to our old missals, pray the rosary, do our devotions. After all, we know that those things are good. Novus ordo types cannot declare past traditions invalid. We know that Trent and all the councils before it were good. What do we gain by investing ourselves in Vatican II spirituality? Sure, maybe it is good, but why risk your soul? Will God damn us for praying as our ancestors did? It seems best to do what we know for certain was pleasing to God 100 years ago. If you believe that is wrong-headed, then you also accuse nearly 2000 years of Catholicism of being wrong. It seems safest to stick with tradition. No Brave New World for me and mine, thanks.

Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosque said...

Quod a vobis (Breviary) had the exact same warning-wording as did Quo Primus - not surprising as both were promulgated by Pope Saint Pius V - but Pope Saint Pius X DID change Qoud a vobis, thus, Pope Saint Pius X was a fake Pope according to any you sedes.


Pages 54-59

Really, it is embarrassing to read these same long-refuted charges being asserted as though they were biblical truths of the upmost importance.

As regarding the repeated claims of Doctor Lamb, they simply are without merit no matter how hard he huffs and puffs while pronouncing them:

The Visibility of the Church is directly linked to the Roman Pontiff. And while during an interregnum the church is "Popeless," for a short period of time, this is not a part of the ordinary constitution of the Church and must necessarily be of short duration. The longest interregnum in the Church to date is less than three years. If the sedevacantists are right, then the present interregnum is ten times greater than that one. Thus the visibility of the Church, embodied in the person of the Roman Pontiff is non-extant. In this awful scenario, the only true Church is constituted of individual priests and bishops in their respective chapels, none of whom have valid jurisdiction, and none of whom report to anyone higher than themselves as authorities. This is not a visible Church; it is a Protestant Church.

Brother Andre Marie M.I.C.M

Doctor Lamb Aug 25, at 4:24 you wrote " If bergoglio is your true Pope - submit and obey!" and ABS asked you to name one thing _ ONE- that Pope Francis has ordered ABS to do and you did not even try to answer the question and that is because he has not ordered ABS or anyone else to do anything and you know it.

It is clear you are trying to seduce men away from there visible church which still has the Four Marks of the One True Church but don't you know that makes you an enemy of Jesus Christ?

Peter Lamb said...

The "Papacy" is an Office called the "Holy See." It may be occupied by a Pope, or unoccupied when there is no Pope - i.e. during an "interregnum." The Holy See remains, whether it is occupied, or not. This I love, honour and obey as all Catholics must.
The word "papacy" can mean slightly different things - the office of the Pope; the authority of the Pope, or the court of the Pope.

I reject the post conciliar 'popes" because they were/are masonic heretics - antipopes - and therefore not true Popes.

When there is no Pope, eg. between the death of one and the coronation of the next, (interregnum),the Church functions as stated by theologians Dorsch and Salaverri. The Pope is not a "primary foundation… without which the Church could not exist," the Pope is a "secondary foundation," "ministerial," who exercises his power as someone else’s, (Christ’s), representative. (See De Ecclesia 1:448)
[The Pope represents Christ; he is the Vicar of Christ. Christ is the Head of the Church and He exists always. The Church is not without her Head during interregnum.]

There is nothing that prevents an interregnum from lasting MANY YEARS. There is no dogma that the Church needs ordinary jurisdiction to survive. Supplied jurisdiction is very real and bishops can consecrate; priests can administer the Sacraments and the Church functions, even when there is no live Pope. The Office of Peter is perpetually over the Church regardless whether it is filled by a living man. In other words, the teachings of the past Popes remain the steadfast guide of the Church. Never does a past teaching become equal to, or less than, a mere bishop or some other person. There is no Church teaching that there is a time limit on the period between popes. No theologian who has ever spoken on this issue has given a time limit for interregnums.

Peter Lamb said...

Did the Church cease during the Great Western Schism, when there were three rival claimants to the Papal Throne from 1378 to 1417? No one could be sure who, if any, were Pope. So who would one follow? What if one followed the wrong "pope." Would one be in schism, because one had inadvertedly rejected the real Pope - or perhaps having rejected all of them due to good reasons for doubting their legitimacy?
Sedevacantism means nothing more than an extended interregnum. There was De facto no pope for almost 40 years during the Great Western Schism.

A. Dorsch — Institutions Theologiae Fundamentalis, 1928:
“The Church therefore is a society that is essentially monarchical.
But this does not prevent the Church, for a short time after the death of a pope, or even for MANY YEARS, from remaining deprived of her head. [vel etiam per plures annos capite suo destituta manet]. Her monarchical form also remains intact in this state . . .thus the Church is then indeed a headless body . . . Her monarchical form of government remains, though then in a different way —that is, it remains incomplete and to be completed. The ordering of the whole to submission to her Primate is present, even though actual submission is not . For this reason, the See of Rome is rightly said to remain after the person sitting in it has died — for the See of Rome consists essentially in the rights of the Primate. These rights are an essential and necessary element of the Church. With them, moreover, the Primacy then continues, at least morally. The perennial physical presence of the person of the head, however, [perennitas autem physica personis principis] is not so strictly necessary” (De Ecclesia 2:196-7).

Peter Lamb said...

Msgr. Charles Journet, The Church of the Incarnate Word: The Church During a Vacancy of the Holy See – We must not think of the church, when the Pope is dead, as possessing the papal power in act, in a state of diffusion, so that she herself can delegate it to the next Pope in whom it will be recondensed and made definite. When the Pope dies the Church is widowed, and, in respect of the visible universal jurisdiction, she is truly acephalous.* ‘But she is not acephalous as are the schismatic Churches, nor like a body on the way to decomposition. Christ directs her from heaven .. . But, though slowed down, the pulse of life has not left the Church; she possesses the power of the Papacy in potency, in the sense that Christ, who has willed her always to depend on a visible pastor, has given her power
to designate the man to whom He will Himself commit the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, as once He committed them to Peter. During a vacancy of the Apostolic See, says Cajetan, the universal Church is in an imperfect state; she is like an amputated body, not an integral body. “The Church is acephalous, deprived of her highest part and power.” [But she is not dead, or unable to function.]

Finally, should Traditionalists who recognize the conciliar popes and church be worried? Not at all!
Vatican II and the connciliar popes teach that non-Catholic sects are a "means of salvation" in the 1992 CDF Letter on Communion, the 2000 Declaration Dominus Iesus, the 1983 Code of Canon Law and the 1997 Catechism!
*Schismatic bodies are “particular Churches” united to the Catholic Church by “close bonds.”
* Each “particular Church” is “Catholic,” but some are “fully Catholic.” [Elements of the Truth, versus the "fullness" of Truth.]

Frankie goes so far as to tell us people need not convert, "Proselytism is nonsense," atheists can go to Heaven and there is no hell! So if you're right, we all get to Heaven and nothing that's going on really matters at all!

Just remember; if we sedes are right, modernist trolls have a hell of a lot to worry about.

Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosque said...

Dr Lamb. You are a heretic according to an infallible council and your old recycled arguments (ceaselessly rehearsed at the Novus Ordo Witch Blog) have long ago been refuted but it is quite clear your ideological delusion has concretised and so ABS just posts this link for the edification of lurkers


Of course, there are many other places where similar information can be found, especially those developed by Salza, Siscoe and others.

Pertinacity in propagandistic heresy is not a virtue but ABS will now disengage .

O, and supplied jurisdiction does not render nugatory actual existing legitimate jurisdiction of those in union with The Pope but you are so deep in your delusion that it would be a waste of time to get into that truth here.other than to note any perfidious protestant in Fiddlebacks could make the same claim if they, like Martin Luther, their father, did not personally approve of a Pope or Council.

Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosque said...


40. But we must not think that He rules only in a hidden [59] or extraordinary manner. On the contrary, our Redeemer also governs His Mystical Body in a visible and normal way through His Vicar on earth. You know, Venerable Brethren, that after He had ruled the "little flock" [60] Himself during His mortal pilgrimage, Christ our Lord, when about to leave this world and return to the Father, entrusted to the Chief of the Apostles the visible government of the entire community He had founded. Since He was all wise He could not leave the body of the Church He had founded as a human society without a visible head. Nor against this may one argue that the primacy of jurisdiction established in the Church gives such a Mystical Body two heads. For Peter in view of his primacy is only Christ's Vicar; so that there is only one chief Head of this Body, namely Christ, who never ceases Himself to guide the Church invisibly, though at the same time He rules it visibly, through him who is His representative on earth. After His glorious Ascension into Heaven this Church rested not on Him alone, but on Peter, too, its visible foundation stone. That Christ and His Vicar constitute one only Head is the solemn teaching of Our predecessor of immortal memory Boniface VIII in the Apostolic Letter Unam Sanctam; [61] and his successors have never ceased to repeat the same.
41. They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible head, broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it.

Now since its Founder willed this social body of Christ to be visible, the cooperation of all its members must also be externally manifest through their profession of the same faith and their sharing the same sacred rites, through participation in the same Sacrifice, and the practical observance of the same laws. Above all, it is absolutely necessary that the Supreme Head, that is, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, be visible to the eyes of all, since it is He who gives effective direction to the work which all do in common in a mutually helpful way towards the attainment of the proposed end. As the Divine Redeemer sent the Paraclete, the Spirit of Truth, who in His name [138] should govern the Church in an invisible way, so, in the same manner, He commissioned Peter and his successors to be His personal representatives on earth and to assume the visible government of the Christian community.


What manner of psychotic principle is it that the sedes employ to directly contradict the teaching of he whom they consider the last legitimate Pope?

Sedevacantism is not a safe port in s spiritual storm it is a locked ward in an insane asylum where they have a Papacy with no Pope.

Joab said...

ABS - what does any of this matter? If the Vatican to church is correct, we are all saved anyway. There is no fear in being a Sedevacantist if protestants, Hindus, Jews and others are also saved as your church teaches.