Friday, 6 February 2026

Another look back on the Archdiocese of Toronto's gay mafia

Time to repost this.  They would rather my fellow Toronto Catholic knew nothing about this. There is a link to the original on the left. 

How many of these priests are still "active?" Well, any priest in Canada, in his late 60's and on, who attended St. Augustine's Seminary from at least 1970 knows what happened and that this is all true. 

Still today, they try to intimidate into silence. They threaten in many ways. One day, I will write the story of what they have tried to do, only to fail, numerous times.

"They are lying to us, they know they are lying to us, we know that they know they are lying to us, they know that we know that they are lying to us, and still, they lie." Paraphrased from Alexander Solzhenitsyn. 


Friday, 30 August 2024

A look back at The Desolate City of the Archdiocese of Toronto and a lost "Dialogue of Trust"

 

This post has been in the works for quite a while. I have mulled over it, slowly editing, transcribing, and cleaning up what I have found for publication from an old microfiche file. The events blogged about earlier this week (the sexual assault lawsuit against Thomas Rosica and the victim's gall, through his solicitor, to seek this writer as a witness) have caused me to consider it again. Therefore, I have decided to publish what follows. 

The purpose of this publication is to document an occurrence forty years ago and provide a historical record of certain activities at St. Augustine's Seminary in the Archdiocese of Toronto and the corruption of the times, the power and influence from the 1980s, which are still being felt today. One of the priests featured below is retired, yet, as recently as a few months ago, remained on the Archdiocesan Priests Council. This is not an accusation of anything untoward on the part of the new Archbishop, now Cardinal Francis Leo, Indeed, this history may likely be news even to him and if this provides any service to him, to know the history and the rot and expose those who have worked against the faith, then that alone is worth its publication. The Catholic faithful of the Archdiocese of Toronto have a right to be aware of things that happened forty years ago that have long been forgotten or covered up and still affect the Church today. Many think that we have had no crisis of sexual perversion or abuse. This is not true. What we have is enough money to buy off the victims and force them into signing non-disclosure agreements.

Let me raise some points of fact about the hushed-up scandals that happened here in the Archdiocese of Toronto:

  • A certain highly placed cleric, a Monsignor, in the chancery, fathered at least two children whilst in his high clerical office of Chancellor of Spiritual Affairs and Vicar General. What became of the mother? He went on to become a successful financial executive and passed away in 2022.
  • A priest professor at St. Augustine's Seminary raped and sodomized a young seminarian so badly that he was taken away by ambulance to repair the anal rupture. Years before, the Cardinal at the time, Aloysius Ambrozic, was told to get rid of him, to which he responded. "I have nobody else to teach liturgy." That injured seminarian was later ordained in the United States, where he remains in a religious order. He was ordained by a Toronto Auxiliary Bishop in Washington. Odd, no? Police were not called. Charges were not laid. The crime was never reported. It was covered up. The perpetrator is now dead and judged.
  • That same priest professor in a former post as a religious order prior was a pastor in a Mississauga (west of Toronto) parish and could very well be responsible for at least two other priests he may have "groomed." One of these is an openly homosexual man who left the priesthood, played the piano as a lounge singer, married a woman, divorced her and now lives in a same-sex relationship with another man. The other, whose theology and priestly formation skills were warped by the 1960s and the radical and false "spirit of Vatican II",  was, in 1976, Toronto's own James Martin of his day. He rose to rank as Rector of St. Augustine's and later Judicial Vicar. You will read about him below. Both of these men were formed as youth or young priests under the same Friar in Mississauga.
  • A certain "hunk" of a Monsignor with the same Irish surname as a then Toronto Police Chief was frequently brought home to the Rosedale mansion of Cardinal Carter, "daddy," drunk and in drag from the gay district on Church Street.
  • Another priest professor at the seminary was known to fondle young men and worse, and was found coming out of the St. Charles Tavern on Toronto's Yonge Street and bragging about it in secular media.
  • Several deaths of priests and professors from AIDS.
  • The former Dean of Studies planned a "gay" retirement home.

In the photo of a book page above, the late Anne Roche Muggeridge refers to a document called "A Dialogue of Trust." It was written by the then Rector referred to above, who was fired for it, sent away to the Catholic University of America in Washington to study and then returned to the Archdiocese of Toronto and served at a senior level in the chancery structure as the Judicial Vicar. All true. He kept the keys to the vault on matters such as lawsuits, assaults and abuse. As referred to earlier, as of a few months ago, he still remained on the priests' council. As a point of personal reference, I actually attended his first Mass at St. Domenic's in Mississauga. My father was the family barber. 

These crimes and abuses happened in the age before the internet and search engines. The money of the Archdiocese silenced those whom it had to and forced non-disclosure agreements upon them. Stories abound about car accidents and bicycle accident deaths, one in particular of a prominent priest, but none can be proven. All of the information above has been given to me by priests of the Archdiocese of Toronto. They know. Some know more than others. All has been covered up, and all the names are known. As for the letter referred to by Anne Roche Muggeridge, nobody had a copy of "A Dialogue of Trust."  It disappeared into history, it was never written, it didn't exist, nobody had it, and it was not published and could not be found. Until now.

The Body Politic was a "gay" newspaper published monthly and founded in 1971, until it ceased publication in 1987. It was located on Yonge Street not far from that same St. Charles Tavern where the academic priest abuser hung out. After intensive searching, "A Dialogue of Trust" was found. It had been published in The Body Politic as part of a larger article on the attempt by Gerald Emmett Cardinal Carter to "hide his gay purge" of St. Augustine's Seminary. It makes one ask, if not for the intrepid reporters at The Globe and Mail back then, certainly not on the side of the Church or Seminary, what would have happened? Would we have ever known? If all of those events above occurred under the administration of Cardinals Carter and Ambrozic how much worse would it have been without the reporting. It seems that after Cardinal Carter's "purge," only two seminarians were left. What of the others? How many went on after 1983 to be ordained, and were men who had or may have continued to act out their same-sex desires and attractions ordained,d and what has it meant for the Church in Toronto? How many of their mentors are still around to influence the Church in Toronto? Again, I repeat, part of the purpose of this post is as a public service to Archbishop Leo. 

What follows was transcribed from a microfiche copy by the writer. Bear in mind that it was written for an audience sympathetic to the cause.

TORONTO'S ARCHBISHOP TRIES TO HIDE HIS  GAY PURGE, BUT THE STORY GETS OUT

Cardinal slams the closet door

Tensions over the apparent presence of gay students in a seminary in Metropolitan Toronto have escalated, with the help of Gerald Emmett Cardinal Carter, into an anti-homosexual witch-hunt which has led to the dismissal of three faculty members and the expulsion of two students. 

Some details of the purge at St Augustine's Seminary in Scarborough, the preeminent school for the training of Roman Catholic priests in English-speaking Canada, were made public in two reports published by The Globe and Mail on September 7 and 8. The stories said that the Rev Brian Clough, St Augustine's rector, and the Rev Thomas Dailey, dean of studies, had been dismissed the first week of June and that the Rev John Tulk, a professor of church history, had been fired early in September. 

Globe reporters Stanley Oziewicz and Peter Moon uncovered the following facts: 

• Carter, the archbishop of Toronto, ordered the dismissals after an investigation of the seminary conducted at his request by the Most Rev Marcel Gervais, auxiliary bishop of London, Ontario; 

• Carter asked Gervais to investigate after coming into possession of a document about "tensions" between gay and straight seminarians that was distributed to St Augustine's sisters, students and faculty by Clough; 

• The tensions had arisen from allegations of homosexual behaviour at a party held in Tulk's rooms at the seminary. 

Beyond these few facts, little has been revealed about the origins of the dispute. Although he had reported the June dismissals when they occurred, Oziewicz first learned some of the details several weeks later from an anonymous letter. In their September stories, Oziewicz and Moon wrote: "Sources, including members of the faculty and student body at the seminary, members of religious orders and laymen, agreed to talk for this article provided they were not identified. Many feared for their future careers if their names were used...." TBP's own investigation has encountered similar fears. Most of those interviewed said they feared retaliation by Cardinal Carter. A priest told TBP: "The diocese is actively trying to find out who gave that information to The Globe and Mail." A member of a religious order commented: "He (Carter) doesn't show any sensitivity toward people, so they're afraid to speak out." When told TOP had been able to learn much of the story and would publish it, the member added, "It will do a lot of good because it shows how they really operate." 

In addition to those quoted, TBP's account of the tensions leading to the dismissals and expulsions has been gathered from a well-placed source who wishes to remain anonymous, and from documents which have come into our possession. Brian Clough could not be reached for comment. A copy of this article was sent to Margaret Long, Assistant to the Director of Communications of the Archdiocese of Toronto, for comment, but she did not return any of TBP's calls.

Cardinal Carter: a secret operation against creeping Protestantism and homosexuality

The presence of suspected gay students in the seminary apparently first became an issue during the 1982/83 seminary year when some first-year students complained about the campy behaviour of some other students. The issue was taken up by an informal group of about a dozen conservative seminarians who were united by their dissatisfaction with the faculty's generally liberal interpretation of Catholic theology. They came to be known as "the machos." Defenders of those accused were dubbed "the effeminates," the group to which the two students who were expelled belonged. Most students belonged to neither. (According to Oziewicz and Moon, Gervais found that between six and 12 of the approximately 50 students were "homosexually oriented." Our source suggests that even Gervais's upper figure may be much too low.) 

Gossip and paranoia flourished. Dennis Hayes, a seminarian who says he belonged to neither group, explained: "When you group a number of people you have a fishbowl type of effect; when people start talking, these things spread.. an innocent comment can turn into a vicious attack." 

In March 1983 several students were criticized in their written year-end evaluation by faculty for their "feminine mannerisms." 

A month later, the authors of an annual letter from students to faculty complained that the faculty was tolerating a "vigilante group" that was harassing suspected gay students. The letter also said that criticism of some students for their mannerisms had exacerbated the situation.

By September it appeared that the letter had had some effect: at the week-long retreat which starts the school year, most of the faculty who spoke of the matter called for tolerance of differences in the seminary. 

But the complaints continued. Charles Lewis, a former RCMP employee said to be in the "macho group" — an allegation which he did not deny — told TBP he himself had lodged a complaint about sexual activity in the seminary: "guys doing things they shouldn't be doing." But he admitted he hadn't witnessed such activity himself. On the other side, rumours flew that "the machos" were searching

Toronto's gay bars for seminarians.

TBP has found no evidence to support this allegation. 

Tensions between the two factions became so acute that, in the late fall, Clough held separate meetings with members of the two groups and with unaligned students in an attempt to cool the dispute.

But after a party held in Tulk's rooms following a joint religious service with Anglican seminarians on January 26 of this year, events started to spiral out of control. Although Gervais later was to find that nothing amiss had occurred at the party, rumours circulated of drunkenness and homosexual activity. 

In a speech delivered to St Augustine's seminarians at a special house meeting six days later, Clough criticized "the rumour mill" and appealed for an end to gossip about the party. On February 8 he met again with members of the factions and other students, this time in a joint meeting. 

Then, on March 19, a three-page letter, "A Dialogue in Trust," apparently written by someone who had been at the February meeting, was distributed on Clough's authority to the seminary's students, faculty and sisters. 

Compassion and the Cardinal 

The Archbishop of Toronto knows how to pick friends, and if you're not one of them. . . . 

"CARDINAL CARTER AIDS DAVIS: No Solidarnosc for T.T.C. Workers" — that was the heading on a leaflet twitting Gerald Emmett Cardinal Carter, archbishop of Toronto, for backing strikes in Poland while opposing a threatened transit strike at home that would have cut into attendance at, and profits from, the recent papal tour. 

Carter, a close friend of John Paul II, was a supporter of the Second Vatican Council, which reformed the Catholic Church. Yet, his critics say, Carter is more zealous for the letter of the reforms than for their spirit. Last year, when the Canadian Council of Catholic Bishops issued an economic report that blamed the profit motive for widespread poverty and unemployment, Carter disavowed the document, siding with the outraged bankers and industrialists. And early this year he authored a pastoral letter which condemned attempts to elaborate a Catholic theology that would allow birth control, abortion and the ordination of women.

Carter's record on gay issues is not completely black. He once wrote a report on police/minority relations which devoted a few lines of criticism to homophobic verbal abuse. But he has also barred the local chapter of Dignity, the gay Catholic organization, from the use of a church for their meetings and has told homophobic jokes to an audience of police officers. The fear and silence surrounding the purge at St Augustine's Seminary point not just to the man's power, but to the way he exercises it. "Insensitive" is the word which most often comes to the lips of his critics. But Carter may have inadvertently illuminated the issue when he dismissed Thomas Dailey. According to the press reports, he told the priest, "You are much too compassionate." Perhaps it is not others, who are too compassionate, but the Cardinal who is not compassionate enough. Although unsigned, the names of Clough and three students appeared at the bottom of the letter. A notable feature of this letter is its twice-stated concern that news of the tensions within the seminary might get beyond its walls. The fearful reference to "having 'outsiders' resolve those issues for us" appears to have been an allusion to Cardinal Carter.

"A Dialogue in Trust" proved to be the means of betrayal: within a few days, a copy had been conveyed to Carter. And by the second week of April, Gervais had begun his investigation into theological and sexual deviation at St Augustine's.

In the purge of St Augustine's, a harmonious constellation of authoritarianism, sectarianism and homophobia can be seen at work. Since the Second Vatican Council, part of the Catholic clergy and laity have been moving away from both the church's traditional insistence on authority as the source of truth and the concomitant paranoia about Protestant theologies. The council suggested that truth is not absolute, that a changing world can pose new questions and demand new answers.

St Augustine's Seminary has been influenced by this new current in Catholicism and has exposed its students to the interaction of social activism and feminism with traditional teachings. As one of the eight theological colleges that jointly make up the Toronto School of Theology, an ecumenical project, the seminary has encouraged an open-minded comparison of Protestant and Catholic beliefs.

But as the new Catholicism has developed, so has the conviction among some Catholics that the revolt against authority and the flirtation with Protestantism — often the same thing to their eyes — have gone too far. It is common knowledge in the Diocese of Toronto that Cardinal Carter and other conservatives are less than fond of St Augustine's, where the now thin trickle of future priests — the seminary's approximately 50 students rattle about in a building that could hold 200 — are thought to be in danger of contamination by rebellion and creeping Protestantism. Once Carter had indisputable evidence that the place of homosexuals in the priesthood was, however informally and tentatively, being explored at the seminary, he struck.

The purge was carried out in a secrecy induced by fear: everyone who knew, even the victims, was too intimidated to speak out. To this day, Carter refuses to say why the firings occurred. Gervais's report remains a secret.

According to the Globe, although Clough, Tulk and the tenured Dailey were instructors at the Toronto School of Theology, the Cardinal ordered them to resign without any explanation to the school. Carter told TST officials that any protest from them over his neglect of due process could result in the withdrawal of St Augustine's from the joint project.

Some of the homophobia was blatant. Gervais is reported to have asked students about homosexual activity, but not about heterosexual activity. And he told faculty they should not admit gay students to the seminary. When the teachers protested that there is nothing in the rules about the sexual orientation of priests, he backed off slightly but still insisted that a gay seminarian would have to have been chaste for five years before admission. Apparently, he made no such stipulation for heterosexual applicants.

But to speak of discrimination is merely to scratch the surface; the homophobia here is deeper and subtler than that.

A trust betrayed The confidential dialogue that didn’t stay confidential

What follows is the complete, unedited text of ' 'A Dialogue in Trust, ' ' the letter circulated by St . Augustine's Seminary Rector Brian Clough to students and faculty on March 19, of this year. (1983)

The following are reflections on discussions that occurred during the past year in regard to issues and tensions that were present in the house. These discussions were alluded to in Fr. Clough's address to the house in February. Initially, Fr. Clough met with three distinct groups composed of second, third, and fourth-year students. These groups represented different viewpoints on tensions that were growing within the first few months of the seminary year. The three distinct meetings allowed students to articulate their perceptions of what was occurring within and between emerging factions. These meetings were completed by the end of the first term. A collective meeting of the three groups took place a week after Fr. Clough's February address.

The purpose of the collective meeting was to provide a forum for dialogue and for the definition of issues that each group perceived. A second issue was to receive feedback on Fr. Cough's February intervention in regard to the house social with Trinity College. It was hoped that the meeting would be an initial step toward resolution of various problems. The meeting began with an attempt to identify what the problems were. The general consensus was that there was misunderstanding of viewpoints, attitudes, and behaviors. This was characteristic of all, not of a certain few. It was recognised that many of us did not know each other well enough and were unsure about positions held, which generated unease and, perhaps, a little suspicion. Within an institution there will be a broad range of personalities and attitudes. Such a situation can all too easily lead to conflict, which itself produces intolerance and insensitivity. It was felt that we were categorizing each other as to lifestyle and orientation. It should be noted that in Fr. Clough's February address there was mention made of a general nosiness of other's business and a consequent breakdown in trust. The problem, then, was one of misunderstanding and unfamiliarity that led to insensitivity and intolerance. Discussion ensued with each group expressing its feelings on the problem. It was felt that each group was given a free and equal opportunity to express their views. As the discussion progressed, it became evident that group boundaries were breaking down and that each was expressing his views as an individual, rather than as a representative of a group.

It became clear that the issue would be lost if the discussion were limited to the surface problem: that is, a tension between those perceived to be "macho" and those perceived to be "effeminate". It was agreed that such exclusive terms are damaging and denigrating. It is all too easy to categorize someone because he acts differently. The issue was then not how to limit those who act differently, but how to come to know the other with greater appreciation and understanding of his uniqueness.

 Five main points were made during the discussion:

 1: to equate homosexuality with effeminate behavior is false. A person's sexual orientation should not become a preoccupation for others. The issue is not one of homosexuality or heterosexuality within or outside the seminary, but one of sensitivity to others who may be different than ourselves.

 2: it is important to be sensitive to the effect that our behavior has on others and the possible effects or perceptions that can result from the cumulative effect of group behavior in a particular situation.

3: it should be recognized that feelings of being threatened by another's uniqueness have their source within ourselves and must be resolved within ourselves. The problem should not be 'how can I change the other', but 'how can I come to terms with myself so that I can appreciate the other more'.

4: out of an ignorance of another's pain can come a desire to avoid that individual because he is different. Thus the challenge must be recognized: to confront someone with a problem is harder than not dealing with him. 

5: the seminary community has a right to resolve its own issues without having them communicated outside the house or having "outsiders" resolve those issues for us. 

The immediate results of the meeting were generally positive. It was felt that dialogue which occurred within the context of the meeting could be transferred to a less formal setting. Much misunderstanding was identified and corrected. It may be correct to say that tolerance was learned and that out of that learning came a greater appreciation and comfort with others who were different than ourselves: that is, a tolerance that was embedded in charity and mutual respect. With the reduction of tension through the expression of difficulties came a more relaxed atmosphere in the house. An important result was that the "silent majority" spoke-up and took an active part in the discussions. It was agreed that the meeting was an initial step to the resolution of the issue. Though the issue was not totally resolved, the meeting provided an opportunity to dialogue in trust. 

The less immediate results were just as important. The meetings that occurred this year served as a first step to dialogue that can and will hopefully occur in years to come. It was recognized that there will always be problems in institutional living and that these problems should be addressed. Thus, the path was opened to future dialogue. It was suggested that the services of professionals, such as Sister Dickson, be employed in addressing issues such as sexuality, spirituality, tolerance, etc. It has been suggested that an opportunity be provided for year groups to reflect on the year with their representatives to the extended faculty meetings. It was also suggested that new students precede returning students at the start of the year by a day or two in order to better prepare them for seminary life and to ease the process of assimilation. In all, these discussions came out of an experience of grace; an experience that was felt by the whole seminary community. The meeting of the collective closed with the hope and the positive anticipation of greater interpersonal communication and friendship 

19 MARCH 1984 

M. CENERINI

FR. B. CLOUGH 

J. MURPHY

D. REILANDER 

This document has been distributed to the sisters, faculty, and students of St. Augustine's Seminary. Its purpose is specifically for the members of the house, i.e. the document is confidential to members of the house. This is why the document has not been posted on the bulletin board.

END OF A "DIALOGUE OF TRUST"

Single-sex institutions in the world. 

Homosexual activity is inevitable; that a certain fraction of its members will be gay is inevitable. Yet it remains a great unspoken concern. Mary Malone, a St Augustine's faculty member, says: "The presence of gay students among seminarians is not new. Until recently, we pretended it wasn't there." 

The St Augustine's purge was directed not so much against gay seminarians as against those, gay or straight, students or faculty, who dared to break the silence — to push or pull open the closet doors just a crack. The purge would be a warning to those still in the closet to stay there. That's perhaps why only two students were asked to leave the seminary, although Gervais estimated that there were as many as 12 "homosexually inclined" students there. That could be the meaning of Carter's explanation to reporters of Clough's dismissal: "To talk about it is one thing, but to put it in print (in "A Dialogue of Trust") is a problem." 

Malone describes Clough and Tulk as "honest, compassionate men." "Their integrity," she says, "helped something come into the open that others would have preferred to keep secret." Clough, Dailey and Tulk are gone from St Augustine's, but those responsible failed in their goal. The secret is now out in the open.

+ + + 

The Rector referred to above, Father Brian Clough, after being fired for the scandal went on to become the Judicial Vicar for the Archdiocese of Toronto. This article is from the Globe and Mail on May 8, 1976. As of a few months ago, Clough was still on the Priest's Council.



Tuesday, 3 February 2026

FSSPX to consecrate new bishops - FIUV responds.

 Press Release - SSPX announces new Episcopal Consecrations | Latin Mass Society

Interview with the Superior General of the Society of Saint Pius X • Don Davide Pagliarani • LPL


1. SSPX News: Mr. Superior General, you have just publicly announced your intention to proceed with episcopal consecrations for the Society of Saint Pius X on July 1st . Why did you make this announcement today, February 2nd?

Father Davide Pagliarani: The Feast of the Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary is very significant in the Fraternity. It is the day when candidates for the priesthood receive the cassock. The Presentation of Our Lord in the Temple, which we celebrate today, reminds them that the key to their formation and preparation for Holy Orders lies in self-giving, which is bestowed through the hands of Mary. It is an extremely important Marian feast, because by announcing a sword of sorrow to Our Lady, Simeon clearly demonstrates her role as co-redemptrix alongside her divine Son. We see her associated with Our Lord from the beginning of his earthly life until the consummation of his sacrifice on Calvary. Likewise, Our Lady accompanies the future priest in his formation and throughout his life: it is she who continues to form Our Lord in his soul.

2. This announcement had been a persistent rumor in recent months, particularly since the death of Bishop Tissier de Mallerais in October 2024. Why did you wait until now?

Like Archbishop Lefebvre in his time, the Society has always been careful not to precede Providence but to follow it, allowing itself to be guided by its indications. Such an important decision cannot be taken lightly or hastily.

In particular, since this is a matter that obviously concerns the supreme authority of the Church, it was necessary to first approach the Holy See—which we did—and wait a reasonable amount of time for its response. This was not a decision we could make without concretely acknowledging the authority of the Holy Father.

3. In your homily, you did mention having written to the Pope. Could you tell us more about it?

Last summer, I wrote to the Holy Father requesting an audience. Having received no reply, I wrote him another letter a few months later, in a simple, filial manner, without concealing any of our needs. I mentioned our doctrinal differences, but also our sincere desire to serve the Catholic Church tirelessly: for we are servants of the Church, despite our unrecognized canonical status.

To this second letter, we received a reply from Rome a few days ago, from Cardinal Fernández. Unfortunately, it completely disregards the proposal we put forward and offers nothing that addresses our concerns.

This proposal, given the very particular circumstances in which the Fraternity finds itself, essentially consists of asking the Holy See to allow us to continue temporarily in our exceptional situation, for the good of the souls who turn to us. We have promised the Pope to devote all our energy to safeguarding Tradition and to making our faithful true sons of the Church. It seems to me that such a proposal is both realistic and reasonable, and that it could, in itself, receive the Holy Father's approval.

4. But then, if you have not yet received this approval, why do you feel you must still proceed with episcopal consecrations?

This is an extreme measure, proportionate to a real and equally extreme necessity. Of course, the mere existence of a need for the good of souls does not mean that any initiative is immediately justified in responding to it. But in our case, after a long period of waiting, observation, and prayer, it seems to us that we can now say that the objective state of grave necessity in which souls, the Fraternity, and the Church find themselves demands such a decision.

With the legacy left to us by Pope Francis, the fundamental reasons that justified the 1988 consecrations remain fully valid and, in many respects, appear even more relevant than ever. The Second Vatican Council remains, more than ever, the compass guiding Church leaders, and they are unlikely to change course in the near future. The broad outlines already emerging for the new pontificate, particularly through the last consistory, only confirm this: they reveal an explicit determination to maintain Francis's path as an irreversible course for the entire Church.

"We promised the Pope that we would devote all our energy to safeguarding Tradition, and to making our faithful true sons of the Church."

It is sad to acknowledge, but it is a fact: in an ordinary parish, the faithful no longer find the necessary means to ensure their eternal salvation. This particularly concerns the full preaching of Catholic truth and morality, as well as the administration of the sacraments as the Church has always done. This is the essence of the situation. In this critical context, our bishops are aging, and with the continuous growth of the apostolate, they are no longer sufficient to meet the needs of the faithful throughout the world.

5. In what ways do you think last month's consistory confirms the direction taken by Pope Francis?

Cardinal Fernández, speaking on behalf of Pope Leo, invited the Church to return to Francis's fundamental intuition, expressed in Evangelii Gaudium, his key encyclical: to simplify somewhat, it involves reducing the proclamation of the Gospel to its essential, primitive expression, in very concise and impactful formulas—the " kerygma "  —for the sake of an "experience," an immediate encounter with Christ, setting aside everything else, however precious it may be—specifically, all the elements of Tradition, considered secondary and incidental. It is this method of new evangelization that has produced the doctrinal void characteristic of Francis's pontificate, which a whole sector of the Church has keenly felt.

Of course, from this perspective, we must always strive to provide new and appropriate answers to the questions that arise; but this task must be accomplished through synodal reform, and not by rediscovering the classic and still valid answers provided by Church Tradition. It is in this way, in the "breath of the Spirit" of this synodal reform, that Francis has been able to impose catastrophic decisions on the entire Church, such as authorizing communion for divorced and remarried Catholics, or the blessing of same-sex couples.

In summary: the “kerygma” isolates the proclamation of the Gospel from the entire body of traditional doctrine and morality; and synodality replaces traditional responses with arbitrary, easily absurd, and doctrinally unjustifiable decisions. Cardinal Zen himself finds this method manipulative, and attributing it to the Holy Spirit blasphemous. I fear, unfortunately, that he is right.

6. You speak of service to the Church, but in practice, the Fraternity can give the impression of challenging the Church, especially when considering episcopal consecrations. How do you explain this to the Pope?

We serve the Church, first and foremost, by serving souls. This is an objective fact, independent of any other consideration. The Church, fundamentally, exists for souls: its purpose is their sanctification and salvation. All the fine speeches, the various and sundry debates, the grand themes that are discussed or could be discussed, are meaningless if they do not have the salvation of souls as their objective. It is important to remember this because there is a danger today for the Church of becoming preoccupied with everything and nothing. Ecological concerns, for example, or preoccupation with the rights of minorities, women, or migrants, risk obscuring the essential mission of the Church. If the Society of Saint Pius X strives to preserve Tradition, with all that it entails, it is solely because these treasures are absolutely indispensable to the salvation of souls, and it aims at nothing other than that: the good of souls, and that of the priesthood ordained to their sanctification.

"In an ordinary parish, the faithful can no longer find the necessary means to ensure their eternal salvation. That is what constitutes a state of necessity."

In doing so, we place at the service of the Church itself what we preserve. We offer the Church, not a museum of old and dusty things, but Tradition in its fullness and fruitfulness, the Tradition that sanctifies souls, that transforms them, that fosters vocations and authentically Catholic families. In other words, it is for the Pope himself, as such, that we preserve this treasure, until the day when its value is once again understood, and when a pope wishes to use it for the good of the whole Church. For it is to the Church that Tradition belongs.

7. You speak of the good of souls, but the Fraternity has no mission concerning souls. On the contrary, it was canonically suppressed more than fifty years ago. On what grounds can any mission of the Fraternity concerning souls be justified?

It is simply a matter of charity. We do not want to take on a mission we do not have. But at the same time, we cannot refuse to respond to the spiritual distress of souls who are increasingly perplexed, disoriented, and lost. They cry out for help. And after searching for a long time, it is quite naturally in the riches of the Church's Tradition, fully lived, that they find, with profound joy, light and comfort. We have a true responsibility for these souls, even if we have no official mission: if someone sees a person in danger in the street, they are obliged to help them according to their means, even if they are neither a firefighter nor a police officer.

The number of souls who have turned to us in this way has grown steadily over the years, and has even increased considerably during the last decade. To ignore their needs and abandon them would be to betray them, and thereby betray the Church itself, for, once again, the Church exists for souls, and not to fuel vain and futile talk.

This charity is a duty that governs all others. Church law itself stipulates this. In the spirit of Church law, the legal expression of this charity, the good of souls takes precedence. It truly represents the law of laws, to which all others are subordinate, and against which no ecclesiastical law prevails. The axiom "  suprema lex, salus animarum  : the supreme law is the salvation of souls" is a classic maxim of canonical tradition, explicitly reiterated, moreover, by the final canon of the 1983 Code; in the present state of necessity, the entire legitimacy of our apostolate and our mission to the souls who turn to us ultimately depends on this supreme principle. For us, it is a role of substitution, in the name of this same charity.

8. Are you aware that considering episcopal consecrations could place the faithful who rely on the Fellowship in a dilemma: either the choice of integral Tradition with all that it implies, or "full" communion with the hierarchy of the Church?

This dilemma is only apparent, in reality. It is clear that a Catholic must both maintain the integrity of Tradition and communion with the hierarchy. He cannot choose between these two goods, which are both necessary.

But we too often forget that communion is essentially based on the Catholic faith, with all that this implies: beginning with a true sacramental life, and the exercise of a government which preaches this same faith and makes it put into practice, using its authority not arbitrarily, but truly for the spiritual good of the souls entrusted to its care.

It is precisely to guarantee these foundations, these conditions necessary for the very existence of communion in the Church, that the Fraternity cannot accept anything that opposes and distorts this communion. Even when it comes—paradoxically—from those who exercise authority in the Church.

9. Could you give a specific example of something the Fraternity cannot accept?

The first example that comes to mind dates back to 2019, when Pope Francis, during his visit to the Arabian Peninsula, signed the famous Abu Dhabi Declaration with an imam. He and the Muslim leader affirmed that the plurality of religions had been willed as such by divine Wisdom.

It is obvious that a communion based on, or including, the acceptance of such a statement would simply not be Catholic, for it would include a sin against the first commandment and the negation of the first article of the Creed . I find such a statement to be more than a mere error. It is simply unimaginable. It cannot be the foundation of Catholic communion, but rather the cause of its dissolution. I believe a Catholic should prefer martyrdom to accepting such a statement.

10. Worldwide, awareness of the errors long denounced by the Society is growing, particularly online. Would it not be more appropriate to let this movement develop in trust in Providence, rather than intervening with a strong public gesture such as episcopal consecrations?

This movement is certainly positive, and we can only rejoice in it. It certainly illustrates the soundness of what the Fraternity defends, and this dissemination of truth should be encouraged by all available means. That said, it is a movement that has its limits. For the fight for the faith cannot be restricted and exhausted by discussions and positions taken on the web or social media.

The sanctification of a soul depends, of course, on a genuine profession of faith, but this must lead to a true Christian life. Now, on Sundays, souls don't need to consult an internet platform. They need a priest to hear their confession and instruct them, to celebrate Holy Mass for them, to truly sanctify them and lead them to God. Souls need priests. And to have priests, we need bishops. Not "influencers." In other words, we must return to reality. That is, the reality of souls, of their concrete, objective needs. Episcopal consecrations have no other purpose: to guarantee, for the faithful attached to Tradition, the administration of the sacrament of Confirmation, Holy Orders, and all that flows from it.

11. Do you not think that, despite its good intentions, the Fraternity could in some way end up mistaking itself for the Church, or attributing to itself an irreplaceable role?

In no way does the Fraternity claim to replace the Church, or to assume its mission: on the contrary, it retains the profound awareness of existing only to serve it, based exclusively on what the Church itself has always and universally preached, believed and accomplished.

The Fraternity is also deeply aware that it is not the one who saves the Church, for Our Lord alone keeps and saves his Bride, He who never ceases to watch over her.

The Society is quite simply, in circumstances it did not choose, a privileged means of remaining faithful to the Church. Attentive to the mission of its Mother, who for twenty centuries has nourished her children with doctrine and the sacraments, the Society is filially dedicated to the preservation and defense of the integral Tradition, taking upon itself the means of unparalleled freedom to remain faithful to this heritage. In the words of Archbishop Lefebvre, the Society is simply a work "of the Catholic Church, which continues to transmit doctrine"; its role is that of "a postman carrying a letter." And it desires nothing more than to see all Catholic pastors join it in fulfilling this duty.

12. Let us return to the Pope. Do you believe it is realistic to think that the Holy Father could accept, or at least tolerate, the Society consecrating bishops without papal mandate?

A pope is first and foremost a father. As such, he is capable of discerning a righteous intention, a sincere desire to serve the Church, and above all, a genuine case of conscience in an exceptional situation. These elements are objective, and all those familiar with the Society can recognize them, even without necessarily sharing its views.

13. This is understandable in theory. But do you think that, in practice, Rome could tolerate such a decision from the Society?

The future remains in the hands of the Holy Father and, of course, Providence. Nevertheless, it must be acknowledged that the Holy See is sometimes capable of demonstrating a certain pragmatism, even surprising flexibility, when it is convinced it is acting for the good of souls.

Let us consider the very current case of relations with the Chinese government. Despite a genuine schism within the Chinese Patriotic Church; despite the uninterrupted persecution of the Church of Silence, faithful to Rome; despite agreements regularly renewed and broken by the Chinese government: in 2023, Pope Francis retroactively approved the appointment of the Bishop of Shanghai by the Chinese authorities. More recently, Pope Leo XIV himself ended up retroactively accepting the appointment of the Bishop of Xinxiang, designated in the same manner during the vacancy of the Apostolic See, while the bishop faithful to Rome, imprisoned several times, was still in office. In both cases, these are clearly pro-government prelates, unilaterally imposed by Beijing with the aim of controlling the Chinese Catholic Church. It is important to note that these are not simply two auxiliary bishops, but rather residential bishops, that is, ordinary pastors of their respective dioceses (or prefectures), with jurisdiction over the local priests and faithful. In Rome, the purpose for which these pastors were chosen and unilaterally imposed is well known.

"The Society of Saint Pius X aims at nothing other than this: the good of souls, and that of the priesthood ordained to their sanctification."

The case of the Society is quite different: our aim is clearly not to support a communist or anti-Christian power, but solely to safeguard the rights of Christ the King and the Tradition of the Church, in a time of general crisis and confusion when these are seriously compromised. The intentions and objectives are obviously not the same. The Pope knows this. Moreover, the Holy Father is perfectly aware that the Society in no way intends to give its bishops any jurisdiction whatsoever, which would amount to creating a parallel Church.

Frankly, I don't see how the Pope could fear a greater danger to souls from the side of the Fraternity than from the side of the Beijing government.

14. Do you think that, in relation to the traditional Mass, the need for souls is as serious as it was in 1988? After the vicissitudes experienced by the rite of Saint Pius V, its liberation by Benedict XVI in 2007, the restrictions imposed by Francis in 2021… in what direction are we going with the new Pope?

As far as I know, Pope Leo XIV has maintained a certain discretion on the subject, which is generating considerable anticipation in conservative circles. But very recently, a text by Cardinal Roche on the liturgy, initially intended for the cardinals attending last month's consistory, was made public. And there is no reason to doubt that it corresponds, in its broad outlines, to the direction desired by the Pope. It is a very clear text, and above all, logical and coherent. Unfortunately, it rests on a false premise.

In concrete terms, this text, perfectly consistent with Traditionis Custodes, condemns Pope Benedict XVI's liturgical project. According to the latter, the old and new rites are two roughly equivalent forms, expressing in any case the same faith and the same ecclesiology, and therefore mutually enriching. Concerned with the unity of the Church, Benedict XVI was thus keen to promote the coexistence of the two rites and published Summorum For many, providentially, this was a rediscovery of the traditional Mass, but in the long run, it also provoked a movement questioning the new rite; a movement that appeared problematic, and which Traditionis Custodes, in 2021, attempted to stem.

Faithful to Francis, Cardinal Roche, in turn, advocates for the unity of the Church, but according to an idea and with means diametrically opposed to those of Benedict XVI: while maintaining the affirmation of continuity from one rite to another through reform, he firmly opposes their coexistence. He sees it as a source of division, a threat to unity, which must be overcome by returning to authentic liturgical communion: “The primary good of the unity of the Church is not obtained by ‘freezing’ division, but by coming together all in the sharing of what can only be shared.” The Church “must have only one rite” in full harmony with the true meaning of Tradition.

A just and consistent principle, since the Church has only one faith and one ecclesiology, it can only have one liturgy that adequately expresses them… But a poorly applied principle since, logical with the new post-conciliar ecclesiology, Cardinal Roche conceives of Tradition as evolving, and the new rite as its only living expression for our time; the value of the Tridentine rite can therefore only be obsolete, and its use, at most a “concession”, “in no way a promotion”.

That there is therefore a "division" and current incompatibility between the two rites is now clearer. But make no mistake: the only liturgy that adequately expresses, in an immutable and unchanging way, the traditional conception of the Church, of Christian life, of the Catholic priesthood, is the one that has always existed. On this point, the Holy See's opposition appears more irrevocable than ever.

15. Cardinal Roche is at least honest enough to acknowledge that there are still some problems in the implementation of the liturgical reform. Do you think this might lead to an awareness of the limitations of this reform?

It is interesting to see that, after sixty years, a real difficulty in implementing the liturgical reform is still acknowledged, a difficulty whose richness should be explored: this is a refrain we have always heard, every time this subject is broached, and one that Cardinal Roche's text does not shy away from. But instead of sincerely questioning the intrinsic deficiencies of the new Mass, and therefore the general failure of this reform, instead of acknowledging the fact that churches are emptying and vocations are declining, instead of asking why the Tridentine Rite continues to attract so many souls… Cardinal Roche sees no other solution than the urgent prior formation of the faithful and seminarians.

Without realizing it, he enters a vicious circle: indeed, it is the liturgy itself that is supposed to form souls. For almost two thousand years, souls, often illiterate, were edified and sanctified by the liturgy itself, without any need for prior training. To fail to recognize the Novus Ordo 's inherent inability to edify souls, while demanding even better training, seems to me a sign of irremediable blindness. This leads to shocking paradoxes: the reform was intended to encourage the participation of the faithful; yet they abandoned the Church en masse because this bland liturgy failed to nourish them; and this supposedly has nothing to do with the reform itself!

16. Today, in many countries, groups outside the Society still benefit from the use of the 1962 missal. Such possibilities were almost nonexistent in 1988. Would this not be a sufficient alternative for the time being, making new episcopal consecrations premature?

The question we must ask ourselves is this: Do these possibilities correspond to what the Church and souls need? Do they adequately meet the needs of souls?

It is undeniable that wherever the traditional Mass is celebrated, it is the true rite of the Church that shines forth, with that profound sense of the sacred not found in the new rite. But one cannot disregard the context in which these celebrations take place. Now, regardless of the goodwill of those involved, the context seems clear, especially since Traditionis custodes, confirmed by Cardinal Roche: it is that of a Church where the only official "normal" rite is that of Paul VI. The celebration of the traditional rite is therefore carried out under a system of exception: adherents of this rite receive, as a gratuitous act of kindness, dispensations that allow them to celebrate it, but these dispensations are part of the logic of the new ecclesiology, and they therefore presuppose that the new liturgy remains the criterion of the faithful's piety and the authentic expression of the life of the Church.

17. Why do you say that we cannot disregard this exceptional framework? Isn't some good being done despite everything? What concrete consequences would be regrettable?

This situation results in at least three harmful consequences. The most immediate is a profound structural fragility. Priests and the faithful who enjoy certain privileges allowing them to use the Tridentine liturgy live in fear of the future: a privilege is not a right. As long as the authorities tolerate them, they can carry on their religious practice without being disturbed. But as soon as the authorities make certain demands, impose certain conditions, or suddenly revoke the granted permissions for one reason or another, priests and faithful find themselves in a conflict, without any means of defending themselves to effectively guarantee the traditional support that souls have a right to expect. Now, how can such dilemmas of conscience be avoided in the long term when, between two irreconcilable conceptions of the life of the Church, embodied in two incompatible liturgies, one is given full legitimacy while the other is merely tolerated?

Then—and this is undoubtedly more serious—the reason for these groups' attachment to the Tridentine liturgy is no longer understood, gravely compromising the public rights of Church Tradition, and thereby the good of souls. Indeed, if the Mass of all time can accept that the modern Mass be celebrated throughout the Church, and if it claims for itself only a particular privilege, linked to a preference or a specific charism, how can we understand that this Mass of all time is irremediably opposed to the new Mass, remains the only true liturgy of the whole Church, and that no one can be prevented from celebrating it? How can we know that the Mass of Paul VI cannot be recognized because it constitutes a considerable departure from the Catholic theology of the Holy Mass, and that no one can be compelled to celebrate it? And how are souls effectively turned away from this poisonous liturgy, to drink from the pure sources of the Catholic liturgy?

"The Fraternity is simply, in circumstances it did not choose, a privileged means of remaining faithful to the Church."

Finally, a more far-reaching consequence stemming from the two previous ones is the need to avoid jeopardizing a fragile stability through disruptive behavior. This forces many pastors into a forced silence when it comes to speaking out against scandalous teachings that corrupt faith or morals. The necessary denunciation of errors that are destroying the Church, demanded by the very good of souls threatened by this poisonous nourishment, is thus paralyzed. One or another is enlightened in private, when the harmfulness of a particular error can still be discerned, but it is now nothing more than a timid whisper, where the truth struggles to express itself with the required freedom… especially when it comes to challenging tacitly accepted principles. Here again, it is souls that are no longer being enlightened, and that are being deprived of the bread of doctrine for which they nevertheless remain hungry: over time, this gradually alters mentalities and leads little by little to the general and unconscious acceptance of the various reforms affecting the life of the Church. Toward these souls as well, the Fraternity feels the responsibility to enlighten them and not abandon them.

This is not about casting blame or judging anyone, but about opening our eyes and acknowledging the facts. We are compelled to recognize that, insofar as the use of the traditional liturgy remains contingent upon at least the implicit acceptance of the conciliar reforms, the groups that adhere to it cannot provide an adequate response to the profound needs of the Church and its people. Conversely, to reiterate an idea already expressed, we must be able to offer Catholics today an uncompromising truth, presented without preconditions, with the means to live it fully, for the salvation of souls and the service of the entire Church.

18. That said, do you not think that Rome could be more generous in the future with regard to the traditional Mass?

It is not impossible that Rome might adopt a more open attitude in the future, as it did in 1988 under similar circumstances, when the old missal was given to certain groups in an attempt to dissuade the faithful from the Society. If this were to happen again, it would be highly political and hardly doctrinal: the Tridentine missal is meant to be used exclusively for worshipping divine majesty and nurturing faith; it cannot be used as a tool for pastoral adjustment or a means of appeasement.

That said, greater or lesser benevolence would not change the harmfulness of the framework described above, and would therefore not substantially alter the situation.

Moreover, the scenario is actually more complex: in Rome, Pope Francis and Cardinal Roche have clearly observed that expanding the use of the missal of Saint Pius V inevitably triggers a questioning of the liturgical reform and the Council, on a troubling and, above all, uncontrollable scale. It is therefore difficult to predict what will happen, but the danger of becoming trapped in political rather than doctrinal considerations is real.

19. What would you like to say especially to the faithful and to the members of the Fellowship?

I would like to tell them that the present moment is first and foremost a time for prayer, for preparing hearts, souls, and also minds, in order to dispose ourselves to the grace that these consecrations represent for the whole Church. This should be done in recollection, in peace, and in trust in Providence, which has never abandoned the Fraternity and will not abandon it now.

20. Do you still hope to be able to meet the Pope?

Yes, absolutely! It seems extremely important to me to be able to speak with the Holy Father, and there are many things I would be happy to share with him that I haven't been able to write down. Unfortunately, the response I received from Cardinal Fernández does not provide for an audience with the Pope. Instead, it mentions the threat of further sanctions.

21. What will the Fraternity do if the Holy See decides to condemn it?

First of all, let us remember that in such circumstances, any canonical penalties would have no real effect.

However, should such a fate befall us, the Fraternity would certainly accept this new suffering without bitterness, just as it has accepted past sufferings, and would sincerely offer it up for the good of the Church itself. It is for the Church that the Fraternity works. And it has no doubt that if such a situation were to arise, it could only be temporary; for the Church is divine and Our Lord does not abandon her.

The Fraternity will therefore continue to work to the best of its ability in fidelity to Catholic Tradition, and to humbly serve the Church by responding to the needs of souls. And it will continue to pray filially for the Pope, as it always has, while awaiting the day it may be delivered from these possible unjust sanctions, as was the case in 2009. We are certain that one day, the Roman authorities will gratefully recognize that these episcopal consecrations will have providentially contributed to maintaining the faith, for the greater glory of God and the salvation of souls.

Interview given in Flavigny-sur-Ozerain on February 2, 2026

on the Feast of the Purification of the Blessed Virgin