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Tuesday, 3 May 2016

“If I did not believe God, I would be convinced that the Catholic Church was about to end.” —Mgr. Joseph C. Fenton on Vatican II, Nov. 23, 1962

Until yesterday, I had not heard of Msgr. Joseph Fenton. You may not have either. 

Some day, the truth about what happened in 1958 will come out, just as it will of 2013. We must admit, something dark descended upon Holy Mother Church at the time following Pius XII. Fatima was not followed, chaos and manipulations occurred before, during and after the Second Vatican Council continuing to this very day. The Church is in crisis, the faith is in collapse in many places of the world. Can it all be just a coincidence?

These diaries, by Msgr. Fenton, give an insider's view as to the first impressions of a man who was there. One of America's, periti.

They are only one man's opinion, but when viewed now, a half century later, they are a severe indictment of that whole period. 

The web page below has the entire diary available on PDF. Suffice to say, I do not agree with the general notion of sedevacantism, however; these are our Catholic brothers and sisters.

http://www.novusordowatch.org/wire/diaries-msgr-joseph-fenton.htm
1960 
“Our Maltese friend (who was born in Alexandria) told us that he saw Spelly [Cardinal Francis Spellman] coming out of the [1958] conclave looking white and shaken.” (Nov. 2, 1960) 
1962
“These are four propositions handed to me under the SHO by the then Laodicea in Phrygia 11/28/54. They were also delivered to [Fr.] Frank Connell… There has never been anything less effective in the Church than a secret condemnation of an error.” (Mar. 16, 1962)
“He [Cardinal Ottaviani] remarked that we were on the eve of the Council, and that no one knew who the Council’s theologians were to be.” (Sept. 28, 1962)
“It is a crime that we did not take the Anti-Modernist Oath. Poor O[ttaviani] must have failed to have our own profession passed by the central commission. It contained his condemnation of [Fr. John Courtney] Murray.” (Oct. 9, 1962)
“I had always thought that this council was dangerous. It was started for no sufficient reason. There was too much talk about what it was supposed to accomplish. Now I am afraid that real trouble is on the way.” (Oct. 13, 1962)
“I started to read the material on the Liturgy, and I was shocked at the bad theology. They actually have been stupid enough [to say] that the Church is ‘simul humanam et divininam, visibilem et invisibilem’ [at the same time human and divine, visible and invisible]. And they speak of the Church working ‘quousque unum ovile fiat et unus pastor’ [until there be one fold and one shepherd], as if that condition were not already achieved.” (Oct. 19, 1962)
“I do not think that any little work on our part is going to bring good to the Church. We should, I believe, face the facts. Since the death of [Pope] St. Pius X the Church has been directed by weak and liberal popes, who have flooded the hierarchy with unworthy and stupid men. This present conciliar set-up makes this all the more apparent. [Fr.] Ed Hanahoe, the only intelligent and faithful member of [Cardinal] Bea’s secretariat has been left off the list of the periti. Such idiots as [Mgr. John S.] Quinn and the sneak [Fr. Frederick] McManus have been put on. [Fr. George] Tavard is there as an American, God help us. From surface appearance it would seem that the Lord Christ is abandoning His Church. The thoughts of many are being revealed. As one priest used to say, to excuse his own liberalism, which, in the bottom of his heart he knew was wrong, ‘for the last few decades the tendency in Rome has been to favor the liberals.’ That is the policy now. We can only do what we can to overt an ever more complete disloyalty to Christ.” (Oct. 19, 1962)
“As far as I can see the Church is going to be very badly hurt by this council. The opposition between the liberals and the loyal Catholics has been brought out into the open. Yesterday a Dutch (Holland) bishop gave a nasty talk in which he claimed to be speaking for all of his countrymen. He charged that the claims (really statements of fact) about theological imperfection in the schema were ‘exaggerated.’ The poor fellow seemed to imagine that a little lack of precision is all right in a conciliar document. I am disgusted with talk of this kind.” (Oct. 27, 1962)
“The sense or feeling of this gathering seems to be entirely liberal. I am anxious to get home. I am afraid that there is nothing at all that I can do here. Being in the council is, of course, the great experience of my life. But, at the same time, it has been a frightful disappointment. I never thought that the episcopate was so liberal. This is going to mark the end of the Catholic religion as we have known it. There will be vernacular Masses, and, worse still, there will be some wretched theology in the constitutions.” (Oct. 31, 1962)“[Fr. Sebastiaan] Tromp has just pointed out that a pastoral council should not be non-doctrinal. Tromp is being very good. He is defending the schemata. He definitely is not giving a break to the opposition. We are hearing history. What is the theological note of what is contained in the theological or doctrinal constitution? Absolutely certain — at least.” (Nov. 13, 1962)
“At the Pope’s own order the rules were changed and the schema was thrown out. A new commission was set up including Cardinal Meyer, Alfrink, and Lienart.” (Nov. 23, 1962)“They plan to leave off this television nonsense in a day or two, and then take up the Church Unity then. That will be a disaster. If I did not believe God, I would be convinced that the Catholic Church was about to end.” (Nov. 23, 1962)
“...some other people believe what I have thought for several months, namely, that John XXIII is definitely a lefty. This nonsense to the effect that he is ‘deceived’ or ‘mal servite’ is disgraceful. He is the boss.” (Nov. 25, 1962)
“The articles in the Milan Corriere della Sera tell of the Pope’s connection with [the excommunicated Modernist priest Fr. Ernesto] Buonaiuti, and they make him look like a real Modernist, at heart. He probably is.” (Nov. 26, 1962) 
1963
“I am afraid that they are going to foist a lot of nonsense on the poor Catholic people.” (Mar. 6, 1963)
“Liberal Catholicism as understood by these men was and is the system of thought by which the teaching of the Catholic Church were represented as compatible with the maxim that guided the French Revolution.” (May 11, 1963)
“The statement of the Council is not a theological text book. At the same time, however, a declaration by a council can cause confusion or finally can actually be harmful when even though there is no error about faith or morals in it, the statement passes over Truths which are, and which have long been generally been recognized as, assertions of Catholic doctrine.” (May 11, 1963)
“[Fr.] Ed Hanahoe gave me two books on Modernism. In one of them I found evidence that the teaching in the first chapter of the new schema on the Church [the one that became the Vatican II dogmatic constitution Lumen Gentium] and the language are those of [the excommunicated Modernist Fr. George] Tyrrell. May God preserve His Church from that chapter. If it passes, it will be a great evil. I must pray and act.” (Sept. 24, 1963) 
1964
“There is nothing erroneous in the material [in the schema on divine revelation] we have passed. But there is a great deal that is incomplete and misleading.” (June 4, 1964)
“M [Fr. John Courtney Murray] has just come in to see the triumph of his false doctrine [of religious liberty].” (Sept. 21, 1964)
“[Cardinal] Lienart is speaking. He is insisting that all Christians have the Jews as a common source. He ignores the fact that the religion of Israel and Juda before the public life [of Christ] was one thing, and past. Christian Judaism is quite another. The center of Jewish religion after Christ is and has been the denial of Christ.” (Sept. 28, 1964)
“The more I hear of the speeches and of the progressiveness, the more I am aware of the fact that this council is one of the most important events in all the history of the Church.” (Oct. 9, 1964)
“[Mgr.] Joseph Quinn just told me that the H.O. [Holy Office] is being abolished and that Card. Ottaviani will not be the head of the new, non-supreme, congregation which will take its place. The old man is being humiliated. He is a saint.” (Nov. 21, 1964) 
1965
“The part on ecumenism [in the text of the commission] is a joke. It reads like a 19th century text, or a second-rate article in a leftist magazine.” (Oct. 28, 1965)
“The day before yesterday I had dinner with O [Cardinal Ottaviani]. On the way back I found that the Pope had written to O about [schema no.] 13. I saw the letter. It was a great mistake to let that one, the one on religious liberty [which became Dignitatis Humanae], and the one on non-Christian religions [which became Nostra Aetate] get by the council.” (Nov. 26, 1965) 
1966-69
“This afternoon John McCarthy called. He is a believer, and he has some confidence in Montini [Paul VI]. He told me that O[ttaviani] has written some articles entirely revising his old position. It must have been under pressure from Montini.” (Sept. 24, 1966)
“I have just about made up my mind to start a new book. I shall write on the notion of the Church. Nothing like this has appeared since the Council. Within the book I hope to have quite a bit to say about the Council. I must be very careful. If a sincere Catholic writes a book it’s either ignored or brutally attacked. I must make no mistakes. My main thesis will have to be that the Catholic theology on the Church has been improved but in no way changed by the Council. I must start with the basic notion of the Church, which is that of a people ‘transferred’ from the kingdom of darkness into the realm of light. The Council left out the background of the Church. It minimized or glossed over the fact that the Church faces opposition, not just from hostile individuals, but from the ‘world.’” (Nov. 23, 1968)
“Thoughts for writing: 1) The ‘for all men’ [as an English translation of pro multis in the canon of the Mass]; 2) Perjury & the Anti-Modernist Oath; 3) Only the historian can judge heresy – a statement by a pretender in the field of theology.” (Mar. 27, 1969)

44 comments:

Brian said...

Vox

I have been reading Monsignor Fenton's work for quite some time. So nice to read some straight forward faithful Catholicism. You may want to check out his commentary on Gregory Baum's trashing of our theological manuals, a trashing that was published only a month after the close of the firsts session of the council. Fenton could see right through the assault on tradition by this virulent recrudescent Modernist. If only our bishops had been this perceptive.

http://catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/Manuals.htm

Woody said...

It is very interesting to note Msgr Fenton's assessment of the popes since St. Pius X as liberal. It calls to mind Julius Evola's 1920s prediction that the Church would turn left.

Mark said...

Vox, maybe you are a young fellow. I am in my early 60s and have heard about Monsignor Fenton for decades. Mostly because so many Catholic websites have cited him in combatting Modernist lunacy and because of his amazing insight into the workings of evil inside Christ's holy Church. I tried to buy his vintage books on eBay but so many other people want them too I rarely get one. I encourage you to read as much as you can of this priest's very sound theology.

Mark

Vox Cantoris said...

Mark, I'm just behind you, turning 60 this October. I don't know how I've missed this priest's work but I wont' know, to be sure!

Thanks!

Vox

Peter Lamb said...

"He told me that O[ttaviani] has written some articles entirely revising his old position. It must have been under pressure from Montini.” (Sept. 24, 1966)"
I have read that Cardinal Ottaviani was practically blind at the stage Montini was putting documents before him to sign and he didn't know what he was signing.

Peter Lamb said...

Guys, I've just had a very emotional experience which I'd like to share with you, if I may.
I'm a lonely little sede in my city. I have just virtually served Mass in America! Father Francis Miller O.F.M. put his laptop on a table near the altar and we hooked up on Skype. A real Tridentine Latin Mass, just like when I was a boy. I said all the responses in Latin and rang the bell. How incredible! Father saying Mass in America and me ringing the bell in Africa! What a gift from God! I must admit, I couldn't keep back the tears. Thanks for listening. :)

Mark Thomas said...

Monsignor Fenton..."Since the death of [Pope] St. Pius X the Church has been directed by weak and liberal popes, who have flooded the hierarchy with unworthy and stupid men."

I don't know that the Popes were/are weak. Well, we are weak sinners. But in the sense that I understand Monsignor Fenton's remark (which I may have misinterpreted), I don't believe that the Popes were/are weak.

Were/are they liberals? Yes and no. They are traditional in regard to dogma. But they were/are liberals in regard to liturgy, opening the Church to the world, "razing the bastions of the Church"...liberal in regard to how to present the Faith.

Beginning in earnest during his Pontificate, it was Pope Venerable Pius XII who launched the liberalization/modernization of the Church. He modernized Bible studies, overthrew traditional fasting regulations, and placed the weight of the Church behind the United Nations Organization, which, in turn, very much opened the Church to the world.

Pope Venerable Pius XII was very liberal in regard to his promotion of radical liturgical reforms and the Ecumenical Movement. He tapped Monsignor Bugnini to reform the Roman Liturgy. Pope Pius XII overthrew Rome's opposition to the Ecumenical Movement. Pope Pius XII declared that the Ecumenical Movement was inspired by "the Holy Ghost".

Therefore, in many ways, Pope Venerable Pius XII instituted the liberalization of the Church. He opening the Church to the Ecumenical Movement and world was influenced greatly by the horrific loss of life that resulted from World War II.

World War II affected greatly the thinking of a great many Churchmen and Faithful in regard to how the Church interacted with the world. From Pope Venerable Pius XII on down, the "raze the bastions of the Church" mentality had become acceptable within the Church.

The thinking, of course, was that Liturgy and relations with non-Catholics had been frozen in time due to the Church's "fortress mentality" response that, at the time was necessary, to the Protestant Revolt.

The time to make the Mass more "comprehensible" to Catholics, which, in turn, would become more attractive to non-Catholics, had arrived, according to the "raze the bastions of the Church" mentality.

The time had arrived to open up to Eastern Orthodox, Protestants, Jews, Moslems...the world had arrived supposedly.

Each Pope has seemed more radical to the previous Pope. That is why when certain Catholics, for example, compare today to the time of Pope Venerable Pius XII, then imagine that Rome today is modernistic and filled with anti-Catholic men. Pope Venerable Pius XII is "the last true Pope" or at least the "last Traditional Pope".

But the reality is that many things that Pope Venerable Pius XII did were radical and far-removed from anything that the Church had ever witnessed. Again, his liturgical reforms and embracement of the Ecumenical Movement were radical beyond anything that the Church to that time had experienced.

The situation in regard to Monsignor Fenton's claim about weak and liberal Popes is akin to the following:

There is a thick jungle. Pope Venerable Pius XII initiated the clearing of a path in that jungle. He cleared his portion of the path. He went as far as he could go during his time.

Headquarters (the Cardinals via a Conclave) sent a new Pope to continue to clear the path that Pope Venerable Pius XII had initiated. Pope Saint John XIII went as he was able...then Pope Blessed Paul VI, etc.

The Popes simply have carried out the natural progression of the work that Pope Venerable Pius XII initiated. They have upheld the dogmas of the Faith. In that regard they have been traditional. They have modernized the Church in other matters. In that regard, they have been liberal.

Therefore...yes and no to Monsignor Fenton's claim that our Popes since the time of Pope Saint Pius X have been liberal.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Vox Cantoris said...

... and don't get me going on the Holy Week reforms!

Peter Lamb said...

Holy Week changes which were pushed on him, whilst he was dying of gastric cancer, by Montini and Bugnini, who were about the only people who had access to him and to which he agreed on an "experimental" basis for, if I remember correctly, only 5 years.

Peter Lamb said...

Dear Mark, You state:
1. "... [Pope Pius XII] modernized Bible studies, overthrew traditional fasting regulations, and placed the weight of the Church behind the United Nations Organization ..."
2. "Pope Venerable Pius XII was very liberal in regard to his promotion of radical liturgical reforms and the Ecumenical Movement."
3. "He tapped Monsignor Bugnini to reform the Roman Liturgy." (Tapped = ?)
4. "Pope Pius XII overthrew Rome's opposition to the Ecumenical Movement."
5. "... many things that Pope Venerable Pius XII did were radical and far-removed from anything that the Church had ever witnessed.
6. " Pope Pius XII declared that the Ecumenical Movement was inspired by "the Holy Ghost"."
7. "From Pope Venerable Pius XII on down, the "raze the bastions of the Church" mentality had become acceptable within the Church."
8. "... his liturgical reforms and embracement of the Ecumenical Movement were radical beyond anything that the Church to that time had experienced."

For my edification Mark, please would you provide quotes from magisterial documents, or any other authoritative and specific citations to establish your statements concerning Pope Pius XII?

Matthew said...

Peter, I understand the tears. Sans the technology, I was there once. For the layman, there seems to be little that can bring one closer to heaven than service at the foot of the altar.

Anonymous said...

+JMJ+

Pius XI didn't/doesn't seem liberal to me. And yes, anything you can find online by Msgr. Fenton is gold. I'd also jot down those he saw as allies, and see what, if anything, they wrote, for it's probably worthwhile reading.

AMDG
James

Mark Thomas said...

Peter Lamb asked me to support my comments that, in turn, supported Monsignor Fenton's comment that included Pope Venerable Pius XII among "weak and liberal popes, who have flooded the hierarchy with unworthy and stupid men."

Vox-permitting, I would be happy to offer some posts to demonstrate that in various ways, Pope Pius XII was liberal, as Monsignor Fenton noted.

However, in my previous post, I noted that I didn't accept Monsignor Fenton's claim that Pope Pius XII was "weak". I did not discuss Monsignor Fenton's claim that Pope Pius XII helped to flood "the hierarchy with unworthy and stupid men."

Instead, I offered undeniable examples that supported Monsignor Fenton's claim that Pope Venerable Pius II was liberal (in regard to certain matters).

There isn't any question that Pope Venerable Pius XII was very much a liberal in many regards and most definitely the first Pope of the 20th Century to initiate in earnest fashion the process that modernized the Church.

Now, Vox-permitting, I would like to offer a few posts to respond to Peter Lamb. Thank you.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Anonymous said...

Vox,

I'm very disappointed that you would cite a sedevacantist website. Surely there were other good Catholic sources where you could get information on Msgr. Fenton. Catholic Family News occasionally has articles on him, and they are not NOT sedevacantist.

Disappointed

Mark Thomas said...

Part 1 of 2

Pope Pius XII modernized Biblical studies

To: Peter Lamb...Thank you (and, of course, Vox) for the opportunity to discuss with you the matter of Pope Venerable Pius II's liberal reforms.

1. [Pope Pius XII] modernized Bible studies...

That is undeniable. He accomplished that via his 1943 A.D. Encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu. Peter, here is the 1943 A.D. overview of said Encyclical as broadcast by Vatican Radio.

http://archive.thetablet.co.uk/article/16th-october-1943/6/-divino-afflante-spiritu-

Peter, here is the link to the Encyclical:

http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_30091943_divino-afflante-spiritu.html

In regard the Encyclical on the Vatican Web site, please note carefully paragraphs 11 and 12. Paragraph 11 begins as follows:

"There is no one who cannot easily perceive that the conditions of biblical studies and their subsidiary sciences have greatly changed within the last fifty years. For, apart from anything else, when Our Predecessor published the Encyclical Letter Providentissimus Deus, hardly a single place in Palestine had begun to be explored by means of relevant excavations."

Pope Venerable Pius XII noted that via such discoveries as excavations and modern insights into languages, ancient writings, and religious rites that "more precise methods and technical skill have been developed in the course of actual experience, it gives us information at once more abundant and more accurate.

******* "How much light has been derived from these explorations for the more correct and fuller understanding of the Sacred Books all experts know, as well as all those who devote themselves to these studies." *******

Peter, Pope Pius XII insisted that modern man had benefitted from "these explorations" to derive a "more correct and fuller understanding of the Sacred Books".

Had His Holiness Pope Francis said that, Traditionalists would have labeled him a "modernist" and "heretic".

From paragraph 12 of Pope Venerable Pius XII's Encyclical:

"Moreover ancient codices of the Sacred Books have been found and edited with discerning thoroughness; the exegesis of the Fathers of the Church has been more widely and thoroughly examined; in fine the manner of speaking, relating and writing in use among the ancients is made clear by innumerable examples.

"All these advantages which, not without a special design of Divine Providence, our age has acquired, are as it were an invitation and inducement to interpreters of the Sacred Literature to make diligent use of this light, so abundantly given, to penetrate more deeply, explain more clearly and expound more lucidly the Divine Oracles."

Again, if Pope Francis had said that..."modernist"..."heretic".

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

Part 2 of 2

Pope Pius XII modernized Biblical studies

Excerpts from the 1943 A.D. Vatican Radio address:

http://archive.thetablet.co.uk/article/16th-october-1943/6/-divino-afflante-spiritu-

-- Languages and original texts...

Pope Venerable Pius XII most definitely offered support for the Latin Vulgate. However, he noted that modern man had, in the field of Biblical textual criticism, attained the "high state of perfection and the fuller standards". That meant that beyond the Latin Vulgate, modern Biblical scholars would do well to turn to other sources, such as Biblical and "oriental languages".

-- Present day advantages for the interpretation of the scripture...

"The consensus of the Fathers and the judgment of the Church constitute the law for the Catholic interpretation of the Bible. But these two criteria are assisted to but a few points in relation to the vast content of the Bible, as can be gathered from the immense mass of material which present day knowledge of the ancient oriental world offers to us.

"In this connection a conspicuous place must be assigned to an understanding of the manner of thought and expression of those ancient peoples, in consequence of which through observations of the literary usages employed by them we can better determine the thoughts of the biblical writers and resolve many difficulties which from a superficial reading are advanced by some as an evidence against the veracity of the Bible.

-- Questions of a more difficult nature...

"With the new approach alluded to, many difficulties bequeathed to us unsolved from antiquity have in our day been happily explained."

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

To Peter Lamb:

Pope Venerable Pius II overthrew traditional fasting regulations...

From Christus Dominus, Concerning The Discipline To Be Observed With Respect To The Eucharistic Fast, by Pope (Venerable) Pius XII, The Apostolic Constitution Of His Holiness issued on January 6, 1953 A.D.

https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P12CHDOM.HTM

Early in the Apostolic Constitution, Pope Venerable Pius XII established that from "the very earliest time the custom was observed of administering the Eucharist to the faithful who were fasting".

The Pope then established that "abstinence from food and drink is in accord with that supreme reverence we owe to the supreme majesty of Jesus Christ when we are going to receive Him hidden under the veils of the Eucharist".

However, Pope Venerable Pius XII then shifted the conversation to modern mankind. He then accepted and promoted the notion that the Church must shift Her ideals in regard to fasting to accommodate modern man.

Here is the key quotation in that regard.

"It should nevertheless be noted that the times in which we live and their peculiar conditions have brought many modifications in the habits of society and in the activities of common life.

"Out of these there may arise serious difficulties which could keep men from partaking of the divine mysteries if the law of the Eucharistic fast is to be observed in the way in which it had to be observed up to the present time."

Pope Venerable Pius XII then listed six rules designed to update fasting regulations to accommodate modern man.

Again, here is the link to read the six rules in question well as the entire document: https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P12CHDOM.HTM

Here is the 1953 A.D. instruction from the Holy Office that commented upon Pope Pius XII's Apostolic Constitution in question:

http://archive.thetablet.co.uk/article/17th-january-1953/16/christus-dominus

Now, Vox-willing, I will generate an additional post to discuss Pope Pius XII's 1957 A.D. Motu Proprio that continued his erosion of Catholic fasting principles.

He adhered to liberal principles in that regard. However, I believe that his liberalism in question was, in his mind, exercised for the good of the Church. Nevertheless, the principles in question were liberal.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

To Peter Lamb:

Pope Venerable Pius II overthrew traditional fasting regulations...

In 1957 A.D., Pope Venerable Pius XII issued the Motu Proprio Sacram Communionem, On Laws Of Fasting And The Evening Mass.

Pope Venerable Pius XII's Sacram Communionem, following his 1953 A.D., relaxation of Catholic fasting principles, liberalized fasting principles to an even greater extent.

As he had done in 1953 A.D., Pope Venerable Pius XII in 1957 A.D. applied the liberal principle that certain Church teachings must change to accommodate modern man.

From Pope Pius XII, 1957 A.D.: "Having taken into consideration the considerable changes which have occurred in working and office hours and in all social life, We deemed it advisable to comply with the insistent requests of the Bishops and have therefore decreed:"

https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P12FAST.HTM

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

To: Peter Lamb...

Pope Venerable Pius XII placed the weight of the Church behind the United Nations Organization...

-- Pope Venerable Pius XII, Christmas Address 1956 A.D.

"No one expects or demands the impossible, not even from the United Nations; *******but one should have a right to expect that their authority should have had its weight*******, at least through observers, in the places in which the essential values of man are in extreme danger.

"Although the United Nations’ condemnation of the grave violations of the rights of men and of entire nations is worthy of recognition, one can nevertheless wish that, in similar cases, the exercise of their rights, as members of this Organization, be denied to States which refuse even the admission of observers – thus showing that their concept of State sovereignty threatens the very foundations of the United Nations.

******* "This organization ought also to have the right and the power of forestalling all military intervention of one State in another, whatever be the pretext under which it is effected, and also the right and power of assuming, by means of a sufficient police force, the safeguarding of order in the State which is threatened." *******

"If We allude to these defects, ********************it is because We desire to see strengthened the authority of the U.N. especially for effecting general disarmament***************** which We have so much at heart, and on which We have already spoken in other discourses."

********** "In fact only in the ambit of an institution like the United Nations can the promise of individual nations to reduce armament, especially to abandon production and use of certain arms, be mutually exchanged under the strict obligation of international law." **********

********** "Likewise only the United Nations is at present in a position to exact the observance of this obligation by assuming effective control of the armaments of all nations without exception...*****************

"The acceptance of the control is the point crucial for victory, where every nation will show sincere desire for peace."
===========================================================================

Peter, there you go.

-- Pope Venerable Pius XII declared via the royal Papal "We" that "We desire to see strengthened the authority of the United Nations, especially for effecting general disarmament, which We have so much at heart, and on which We have already spoken in other discourses."

-- Pope Venerable Pius XII declared that "only in the ambit of an institution like the United Nations can the Promise of individual nations to reduce armaments, and especially to abandon the production and use of certain arms, be mutually exchanged under the strict obligation of international law."

-- Pope Venerable Pius XII declared that "only the United Nations is at present in a position to exact the observance of this obligation by assuming effective control of the • armaments of all nations without exception."

The world should surrender weapons to the United Nation and turn to the United Nations to establish peace, according to Pope Venerable Pius XII.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

Pope Venerable Pius XII and his various calls to establish a world "police" authority to take control of weapons, outlaw war, and maintain peace among nations:

-- Pope Venerable Pius XII, Address to delegates of the fourth annual Congress of the World Movement for Federal Government, April 6, 1951 A.D.:

"Your movement, gentlemen, dedicates itself to realizing an effective political organization of the world. Nothing is more in conformity with the traditional doctrine of the Church, with her teaching concerning legitimate or illegitimate war, above all in the present emergency.

"It is necessary, therefore, to arrive at such an organization, if for no other reason than to put an end to the armaments race in which for many tears peoples have been ruining and exhausting themselves through sheer waste."
=====================================================================

-- Pope Venerable Pius XII, Christmas Message, 1944 A.D:

"The decisions already published by international commissions permit one to conclude that an essential point in any future international arrangement would be the formation of an organ for the maintenance of peace, of an organ invested by common consent with supreme power to whose office it would also pertain to smother in its germinal state any threat of isolated or collective aggression.

"No one could hail this development with greater joy than he who has long upheld the principle that the idea of war as an apt and proportionate means of solving international conflicts is now out of date.

"No one could wish success to this common effort, to be undertaken with a seriousness of purpose never before known, with greater enthusiasm, than he who has conscientiously striven to make the Christian and religious mentality reject modern war with its monstrous means of conducting hostilities."

=============================================================================

-- Pope Venerable Pius XII, Christmas Message, 1948 A.D.:

"The Catholic doctrine on the State and civil society has always been based on the principle that, in keeping with the will of God, the nations form together a community with a common aim and common duties.

"Even when the proclamation of this principle and its practical consequences gave rise to violent reactions, the Church denied her assent to the erroneous concept of an absolutely autonomous sovereignty divested of all social obligations."

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Karl Rahner Jr. said...

At this stage any source is acceptable even a sede one. One can use their resources without having to agree with their position.

Anonymous said...

Vox mosey on over to Catholic Family News and you will become aqainted with stellar Catholic info. Mr John Vennari presents the writings of priests including Monsignoir Fenton, Dom Gueranger, Fr Dennis Fahey and more.

Michael Dowd said...

Thanks Vox. Excellent. Agree completely with Msgr. Fenton. How could we not as the evidence is clear. The purpose of Vatican II was to make the Church Protestant and hence pagan. This remaking at the hands of Modernists(Communists) has now been nearly accomplished with Pope Francis merely adding some finishing touches. This has been a long time coming but also predicted for a long time, i.e., Our Lady of Good Success, etc.

With the self immolation of the Church nearly complete we can only pray that God will intervene to bring about a reform. If God does not intervene this will most likely mean that the end days are now at hand.

Mark Thomas said...

Peter Lamb...

In regard to Pope Venerable Pius XII, Monsignor Bugnini, and the Pope's liberal liturgical reforms...

Pope Venerable Pius XII, on May 28, 1948 A.D., appointed Monsignor Bugnini Secretary to the Commission for Liturgical Reform. From: Rorate Caeli:

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/04/the-reform-of-holy-week-in-years-1951.html

Also from Rorate Caeli: Monsignor Bugnini, noting the key role that he played in Popes Vernable Pius XII and Blessed Paul VI's liturgical reforms, declared: "I am the liturgical reform".

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2010/10/bugnini-i-am-liturgical-reform.html

==================================================================================

In 1948 A.D., Pope Venerable Pius XII was presented with a 340-page document entitled Memoria sulla riforma liturgica, which outlined the stages that, over time, the liturgical reform would take. The document in question thanked "Rev. Fr. Bugnini, CM" for his contribution to the then-pending liturgical reform.

Peter, I also note the following list of Pope Pius XII's liberal liturgical reforms as documented by Father Anthony Cekada.

(1) Liturgy must follow the “pastoral” principle to educate the faithful.

(2) Vernacular may be an integral part of the liturgy.

(3) Reduction of the priest’s role.

(4) Lay participation must ideally be vocal.

(5) New liturgical roles may be introduced.

(6) Prayers and ceremonies may be changed to accommodate modern “needs.”

(7) “Needless duplications” must be eliminated.

(8) The Ordo Missae itself may be changed, or parts eliminated.

(9) The Creed need not be recited on more solemn occasions.

(10) The priest “presides” passively at the bench when Scripture is read.

(11) Certain liturgical functions must be conducted “facing the people.”

(12) Emphasis on the saints must be reduced.

(13) Liturgical texts or practices that could offend heretics, schismatics or Jews should be modified.

(14) Liturgical expressions of reverence for the Blessed Sacrament may be “simplified” or reduced.

Father Cekada noted that "we recognize that these principles and precedents were the foot in the door to the eventual destruction of the Mass. In the very document promulgating the Novus Ordo, in fact, Paul VI himself points to the Pius XII legislation as the beginning of the process.

"Continuing to follow these practices promotes the modernist lie that the New Mass was merely an organic development of the true Catholic liturgy. You can hardly criticize the New Mass' vernacular, passive presider and ceremonies facing the people if you engage in the very same practices every year when Holy Week rolls around."

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Peter Lamb said...

Dear Mark, let's start by establishing the Pope's authority and where it applies.
The Pope receives his authority directly from Our Lord. Where does it apply?
"If anyone, then, shall say that the Roman Pontiff has the office merely of inspection or direction, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the Universal Church, not only in things which belong to faith and morals, but also in those which relate to the discipline and government of the Church spread throughout the world; or assert that he possesses merely the principal part, and not all the fullness of this supreme power; or that this power which he enjoys is not ordinary and immediate, both over each and all the Churches and over each and all the Pastors and the faithful; let him be anathema."(Pastor Aeternus)
Note especially "discipline and government."

1. "Modernised bible studies.": You are correct and have provided some excellent quotes. Mea culpa! When you wrote "modernised" I misinterpreted you to mean the word in the modernist(heretical) sense, especially in view of the preceding sentence "it was Pope Venerable Pius XII who launched the liberalization/modernization of the Church". That sentence I certainly disagree with, if you imply he had anything to do with Vat.II, or the modernist, conciliar church. If you mean, for example, that he adapted fasting laws to modern living circumstances - no problem.

2. "overthrew traditional fasting regulations" Mark, as I have said before, you are a researcher of note! Once again you have provided excellent quotes explaining exactly why Pope Pius instituted his sensible changes to fasting law. However, your conclusion that his eminently practical changes constituted an "erosion of Catholic fasting principles", or "overthrew" them, is completely misguided. The Pope has supreme power regarding matters of discipline and governance. Ergo, he may change fasting laws as and when he pleases. He thereby erodes, or overthrows, nothing - he merely exercises his God-given authority to adapt church law to prevailing circumstances:

Peter Lamb said...

“The Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.” (Mediator Dei.)
The same applies to his Holy Week changes. The controversy today centers around whether Pius XII, would still want his revised Holy Week liturgy to be used, when these revisions proved to be the stepping stone to the apostate liturgy of the novus ordo - thanks to Bugnini and Montini. Liturgy resorts under Discipline and the Pope may modify aspects of liturgical practice - but without deviating from the doctrine received from his predecessors. There is a stark and obvious difference between Pope Pius's revisions for Holy Week and the wholesale fabrication of the novus ordo mass under Paul VI.

3. "the weight of the Church behind the United Nations Organization" Well, he supported the creation of a multi-national organisation to promote peace and disarmament during and immediately after a World War. What's wrong with that?

4.You have provided nothing to support your contentions:
"his promotion of radical liturgical reforms and the Ecumenical Movement."
"overthrew Rome's opposition to the Ecumenical Movement."
"declared that the Ecumenical Movement was inspired by "the Holy Ghost"."
"embracement of the Ecumenical Movement were radical"

Pope Pius sought true ecumenism - the return of strays to the one, true flock:
"...while by His grace He provides for the continual growth of the Church, He yet refuses to dwell through sanctifying grace in those members that are wholly severed from the Body... We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation ... Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ ... We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home."
(Mystici Corporis Christi.)
How does that constitute radical embracement of the Ecumenical Movement (which seeks syncretism and religious indifference)? It does not!
Mark, the tone of your original comment expresses an opprobrium of Pope Pius which, as I have demonstrated, is wholly unjustified.

Mark Thomas said...

To: Peter Lamb,

Pope Venerable Pius XII overthrew Rome's opposition to the Ecumenical Movement.

Pope Pius XII accepted that the Holy Ghost inspired the Ecumenical Movment. The Pope authorized bishops to participate in the Ecumenical Movement, assign qualified personnel to participate in ecumenism, and permitted them to pray with schismatics and heretics.

First, in contrast to the above, let us begin with Pope Pius XI, and his 1928 A.D., Encyclical Mortalium Animos, On Fostering True Religious Unity:

7. "And here it seems opportune to expound and to refute a certain false opinion, on which this whole question, as well as that complex movement by which non-Catholics seek to bring about the union of the Christian churches depends."

9. "These pan-Christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians:"

10. "So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it."

On December 20, 1949 A.D., Pope Venerable Pius XII went in the opposite direction when he allowed that the Holy Ghost had inspired the Ecumenical Movement. He allowed that the Church would embrace the Ecumenical Movement.

From the Holy Office, Instruction "On The Ecumenical Movement", December 20, 1949 A.D.:

"Now in many parts of the world, as a result of various external events and changes of views on the part of people, but especially in consequence of the common prayers of-the faithful through the grace of the *******Holy Spirit,******* there has grown constantly in the minds of many persons separated from the Catholic Church the desire for a return to unity on the part of all who believe in the Lord Christ."

I— "Since the above-mentioned "union" is a matter which pertains primarily to the authority and office of the Church, it should be attended to with special care by the Bishops...diligently and effectively watch over this entire activity, but also prudently promote and direct it..."

"For this purpose they shall designate well-qualified priests who, according to the doctrine and norms prescribed by the Holy See...shall pay close attention to everything which concerns the "Movement" and report thereon to the Bishops in the manner and at the time which they shall prescribe."

III— "With regard especially to , which in recent times have begun to be held in many places to promote "union" in the faith, there is need of quite peculiar vigilance and control on the part of Ordinaries."

V— "Although in all these meetings and conferences any communication whatsoever in worship must be avoided, yet the recitation in common of the Lord's Prayer or of some prayer approved by the Catholic Church, is not forbidden for opening or closing the said meetings."

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Peter Lamb said...

Dear Mark, Please give me the citation (reference source) for
"Pope Pius XII's liberal liturgical reforms as documented by Father Anthony Cekada"

Mark Thomas said...

Peter Lamb said...2. "overthrew traditional fasting regulations" Mark, as I have said before, you are a researcher of note! Once again you have provided excellent quotes explaining exactly why Pope Pius instituted his sensible changes to fasting law. However, your conclusion that his eminently practical changes constituted an "erosion of Catholic fasting principles", or "overthrew" them, is completely misguided. The Pope has supreme power regarding matters of discipline and governance. Ergo, he may change fasting laws as and when he pleases. He thereby erodes, or overthrows, nothing - he merely exercises his God-given authority to adapt church law to prevailing circumstances:"

Peter, I understand and accept absolutely that the Roman Pontiff possesses the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. I accept that Popes authorize changes within the Church. However, it's a differ matter as to whether those changes benefit Holy Mother Church.

The fact is that Pope Venerable Pius XII overthrew traditional fasting regulations. Whether that benefitted Holy Mother Church is debatable. What is not debatable is that via two documents on the Eucharistic Fast, Pope Pius XII had overthrown traditional fasting practices.

Via his 1953 A.D. Apostolic Constitution, and his 1957 A.D. Motu Proprio, Pope Venerable Pius XII acknowledged that from "the very earliest time the custom was observed of administering the Eucharist to the faithful who were fasting".

Pope Venerable Pius XII acknowledged that "abstinence from food and drink is in accord with that supreme reverence we owe to the supreme majesty of Jesus Christ when we are going to receive Him hidden under the veils of the Eucharist".

However, Pope Venerable Pius XII then declared that the Church's fasting regulations in question had to change to accommodate modern man.

That is undeniable. These are Pope Venerable Pius XII's very words..."It should nevertheless be noted that the times in which we live and their peculiar conditions have brought many modifications in the habits of society and in the activities of common life.

"Out of these there may arise serious difficulties which could keep men from partaking of the divine mysteries if the law of the Eucharistic fast is to be observed in the way in which it had to be observed up to the present time."

Peter, it's right there in the very words of Pope Venerable Pius XII...that he would overthrow the "law of the Eucharistic fast...in the way in which it had to be observed up to the present time."

Peter, absent from the Church, by order of Pope Venerable Pius XII, is observance of the tradition that consumption of water breaks the Eucharistic Fast.

By order of Pope Venerable Pius XII, absent from the Church is the Midnight Eucharistic Fast Tradition.

Peter, nobody can deny that. Also, nobody can deny that Pope Venerable Pius XII replaced fasting practices as he appealed to the liberal principle that the Church must adapt to modern man and those situations that have arisen due to modern lifestyles.

Peter, this is not an attack upon Pope Venerable Pius XII, whom I believe was a holy man and, in many ways, a great Pope. But the notion that he, in various ways, was not liberal, is 100 percent false.

It simply is undeniable that Pope Venerable Pius XII was the first 20th Century Pope who, in earnest, instituted various radical reforms. Whether those reforms benefitted Holy Mother Church is a different matter.

But Pope Venerable Pius XII was, in various ways, very liberal. He launched undeniably radical reforms of the Church and Liturgy that his successors continued in principle.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

Peter Lamb said..."Dear Mark, Please give me the citation (reference source) for
"Pope Pius XII's liberal liturgical reforms as documented by Father Anthony Cekada"

Peter, the information is included in Father Cekada's massive book on the liturgical reform "Work of Human Hands". On the Internet, Father Cekada offers a list of Pope Pius XII's liberal liturgical reforms. Here is the link...just scroll down the page a bit to read the list.

http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=82

That is where you will find the following about Pope Venerable Pius XII's liturgical reforms:

(1) Liturgy must follow the “pastoral” principle to educate the faithful.
(2) Vernacular may be an integral part of the liturgy.
(3) Reduction of the priest’s role.
(4) Lay participation must ideally be vocal.
(5) New liturgical roles may be introduced.
(6) Prayers and ceremonies may be changed to accommodate modern “needs.”
(7) “Needless duplications” must be eliminated.
(8) The Ordo Missae itself may be changed, or parts eliminated.
(9) The Creed need not be recited on more solemn occasions.
(10) The priest “presides” passively at the bench when Scripture is read.
(11) Certain liturgical functions must be conducted “facing the people.”
(12) Emphasis on the saints must be reduced.
(13) Liturgical texts or practices that could offend heretics, schismatics or Jews should be modified.
(14) Liturgical expressions of reverence for the Blessed Sacrament may be “simplified” or reduced.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

To: Peter Lamb,

If you are interested, Tradition In Action has treated Pope Venerable Pius XII's liturgical reforms, which were denounced during the 1950s by several Churchmen.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f089_Dialogue_14.htm

Vox-permitting, here are some excerpts from that article.

1951-1955: The Vatican Started the Liturgical Reform

Dr. Carol Byrne, Great Britain

"Before dealing with the actual changes to the Holy Week liturgy in 1955 under Pius XII, which were many and significant, we will take a look at the guiding principles of the 1948 Commission for the General Reform of the Liturgy and the manner in which its Secretary, Fr. Annibale Bugnini, went about his task of overhauling the Church’s most ancient and venerable ceremonies.

"Bugnini’s penchant for secrecy informed all his actions. "Bugnini himself admitted that his Commission met “in absolute secrecy.” He transmitted selective information via Fr. Augustin Bea and Msgr. Giovanni Battista Montini “up the back stairs,” so to speak, to the Pope, kept the Sacred Congregation of Rites in the dark and sprang the first of the Holy Week reforms on the unsuspecting faithful in 1951.

"In fact, so secret was the work of the Commission on this project that Bugnini (allegedly known as Brother Buan in Freemasonry) admitted that “the publication of the Renewed Order for Holy Saturday at the beginning of March 1951 caught even the officials of the Congregation of Rites by surprise.”

"I am the liturgical reform!’ These words of inflated self-esteem – “I am the liturgical reform” – were attributed to Bugnini by a close colleague.

"It is also an example of the corrupting power handed to him by Pius XII. Without such papal backing, the work of the Commission would have ground to a halt."

"It is not generally appreciated just how controversial the 1951-1955 Holy Week reforms were in their day. Historical records exist to show that they were vehemently criticized by many Bishops, priests and lay people on account of the radical nature of the changes then initiated.

"Among the most outspoken critics was Msgr. Léon Gromier, a distinguished Prelate of the Papal Household and a Canon of St. Peter’s Basilica. As a consulter to the Congregation of Rites since the time of Pope Pius X, he was in a position to speak with authority on the Holy Week ceremonies.

"He did not hesitate to describe them as an “act of vandalism,” “an immense loss and an outrage to history,” “the negation of reasoned principles” and the product of a “pastoral mentality impregnated with a populist attitude, unfavorable to the clergy.” With reference to the liturgists who produced the reforms, he lamented that their “discretionary powers are vast, as are the abuses.”

"Objections from Bishops to the interim Holy Week changes of 1951 poured into the Vatican with requests to leave the traditional rites intact. The final and obligatory reform of 1955 was vigorously opposed by more Bishops, for instance Card. Francis Spellman of New York and Arch. John Charles McQuaid of Dublin (on the grounds that it might destabilize the faith of the Irish people).

"Among the laity, the Catholic newspapers of 1955-1956 were rife with objections. The novelist, Evelyn Waugh, who had converted to Catholicism, considered the changes ruinous to his spiritual life and a danger to the faith itself, particularly among simple folk."

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Peter Lamb said...

Thanks for further comment Mark. Please note that the Holy Office document you quote forbids Catholics from worshiping with heretics and implies a warning to Ordinaries to ensure that any ecumenism undertaken will be along the lines laid down in Mystici Corporis and not by false ecumenism. To state that this is tantamount to radically embracing the Ecumenical Movement, in contradiction to tradition, is unreasonable.
The Pope is our supreme Teacher and we are the taught. Whether we agree with, approve of, or like his changes to the fasting laws is utterly and completely immaterial and irrelevant. Our Catholic duty is to accept and submit to his decree.
Mark, you're a long-winded youngster and I'm a long-winded geriatric, so let's give the others a chance now, or we will keep a game of tennis going for ever.
Pax et Bonum. :)

Peter Lamb said...

Thanks Mark, it is very interesting. Have you read "Work of Human Hands", by Fr. Cekada? If not, please read it. It will give you a detailed lowdown on all the shenanigans from the beginning.

Anonymous said...

I agree with you. I've been reading Catholic Family News for almost 20 years and they always have good articles.

Disappointed

Mark Thomas said...

Peter Lamb said..."Please note that the Holy Office document you quote forbids Catholics from worshiping with heretics and implies a warning to Ordinaries to ensure that any ecumenism undertaken will be along the lines laid down in Mystici Corporis and not by false ecumenism. To state that this is tantamount to radically embracing the Ecumenical Movement, in contradiction to tradition, is unreasonable."

Peter, I disagree that my statement "is unreasonable".

Yes, Pope Venerable Pius XII maintained the prohibition against worship with heretics. However, he departed radically from the Church's rejection of Catholic participation in the Ecumenical Movement.

Also, the ancient tradition of the Church rejected prayer with heretics, which Pope Venerable Pius II permitted in his document that launched the Church into the Ecumenical Movement.

Finally, Pope Venerable Pius XII declared that the Holy Ghost inspired the Ecumenical Movement. That, and all of the above, constituted a radical departure from prior Church teaching on those matters.

Compare that which Pope Venerable Pius XII said and permitted to the following from Pope Pius XI's Encyclical Mortalium Animos, On Fostering True Religious Unity.

7. "And here it seems opportune to expound and to refute a certain false opinion, on which this whole question, as well as that complex movement by which non-Catholics seek to bring about the union of the Christian churches depends."

9. "These pan-Christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians:"

10. "So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it."

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

Peter Lamb said..."Mark, you're a long-winded youngster and I'm a long-winded geriatric..."

Peter, I wish that I were a youngster. You think I'm long-winded? Imagine what I was like years ago when I had twice the energy that I have today!

If Vox charged his readers just one-cent per comment to post to his blog, then each day by noon, he'd make a million dollars just off me!...if I had a million.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Peter Lamb said...

LOL! At 60 you're a youngster Mark - just about to reach your prime!
Life begins at 60 ol' chap. We just gotta get your theology right before you get old. Thanks for the lekker (nice) chat. God bless.

Mark Thomas said...

Peter Lamb said..."Thanks Mark, it is very interesting. Have you read "Work of Human Hands", by Fr. Cekada? If not, please read it. It will give you a detailed lowdown on all the shenanigans from the beginning."

Peter, I don't understand the following: My initial post to this thread noted, among other things, Pope Venerable Pius XII's liberal liturgical reforms as well as the role that Monsignor Bugnini had played in Pope Venerable Pius XII's liturgical reforms.

You responded with the following: "For my edification Mark, please would you provide quotes from magisterial documents, or any other authoritative and specific citations to establish your statements concerning Pope Pius XII?"

Peter, as you are familiar obviously with Father Cekada, as well as his book "Work of Human Hands", why did you request, for your "edification", that I cite sources that supported my statements in regard to Pope Pius XII's liturgical reforms along with Monsignor Bugnini's role in developing said reforms?

Father Cekada is known well for his criticisms of Pope Pius XII's liturgical reforms. Father Cekada is know well for his documentation of the role that Monsignor Bugnini played in Pope Venerable Pius XII's liturgical reforms.

Does Father Cekada cover the above in his book, Work of Human Hands, pages 54–56, 58–61, 68–69?

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Peter Lamb said...

Dear Mark, You are very well informed, but I think you draw a mistaken conclusion. "Work of Human Hands" makes it very clear that Bugnini's reforms were a progressive, calculated, masonic strategy clothed in secrecy and deceit, developed over time, to destroy the Mass. To label Bugnini's masonic plot as "Pope Pius XII's Liturgical Reforms" is, to say the least, very inaccurate. You are aware of the detailed nature and course of events; you are aware of Pope Pius's personal circumstances at the time, so put the hat where it fits.
With respect, I think you sometimes speak with unnecessary hyperbole which actually distorts for the reader the meaning of what you are saying. Your description of the changes to the fasting rules is a perfect example - describing sensible, legitimate changes as being "radical" "erosive" "overthrowing traditional practices" "liberal", creates a false impression of an innocuous event.

Mark Thomas said...

Peter Lamb,

Father Cekada has panned Pope Pius XII's liturgical reforms. They have harmed the Church, according to Father Cekada. However, I am familiar with the fact that Father Cekada has attempted to whitewash the reality that ownership of the reforms belong to Pope Venerable Pius XII.

In that regard, Father Cekada has played the same game that conservatives have played in regard to Pope Blessed Paul VI involvement with Vatican II and the Novus Ordo. The game is...Pope Blessed Paul VI was surrounded by big, bad men who tricked him...Monsignor Bugnini tricked him...Pope Blessed Paul VI was out of the loop.

That, of course, is preposterous. For better or worse, Pope Blessed Paul VI retains ownership of the documents and reforms that he approved. The same applies to Pope Venerable Pius XII.

Such reviewers of Work of Human Hands as Dr. Alcuin Reid had noted that much of what Father Cekada has said of the reform of the Roman Liturgy, which has taken place from 1948 A.D. to date, deserves serious consideration.

Unfortunately, as Dr. Reid has also noted, Father Cekada's desperate attempts to distance Pope Venerable Pius XII from the very reforms that the Pope approved are "excessive" (Dr. Reid's word). That harms Father Cekada's credibility.

For as Dr. Reid has noted in regard to Pope Venerable Pius XII' and the Pope's liturgical reforms, "for better or worse, the responsibility for them is his".

Sedevacantists have, of course, a vested interest in their desperate, untenable attempt to distance Pope Venerable Pius XII from his very own liturgical reforms.

1. Sedevacantists pretend that Pope Venerable Pius XII's is the "last real Pope".

2. Sedevacantists acknowledge that Pope Venerable Pius XII's liturgical reforms are dreadful.

3. Sedevacantists acknowledge that Pope Pius XII's liturgical reforms were part of the plan that intended to unleash far greater liturgical reforms upon the Faithful.

4. Sedevacantists, therefore, to justify their refusal to recognize subsequent Popes as "true" Popes, concocted the narrative that big, bad Monsignor Bugnini and additional Churchmen dictated and unleashed the reforms upon the Faithful without Pope Venerable Pius XII's true knowledge and consent.

Again, that is akin to the nonsense narrative that conservatives concocted to exonerate Pope Blessed Paul VI in regard to the damage that have resulted from his reforms. Big, bad Monsignor Bugnini and additional Churchmen simply tricked Pope Blessed Paul VI and forced reforms upon the Faithful without the true consent of the Pope.

Utter nonsense in both cases. The Popes in question, for better or worse, foisted liturgical reforms upon us that they alone approved. Nobody except the Popes in question possessed the authority to approve said reforms. They, and nobody else, launched and approved the reforms.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

Father Cekada has acknowledged that Pope Venerable Pius XII's liturgical reforms have harmed the Church. Father Cekada claims that Pope Venerable Pius XII is the "last true Pope". To justify that claim, Father Cekada concocted the narrative that Monsignor Bugnini and additional Churchmen are responsible for having foisted the reforms upon us. We are supposed to believe that Pope Venerable Pius XII was out of the loop in regard to the very liturgical reforms that he alone promulgated.

However, the following is from Father Cekada:

http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=82&catname=6

(In 1948 A.D., Pope Venerable Pius XII established the Pontifical Commission for the Reform of the Liturgy.)

1. Father Cekada noted that there existed "a 340-page typeset document called the Memoria sulla riforma liturgica, which was presented to Pius XII in 1948."

2. "The Memoria bears one signature, that of Fr. Ferdinando Antonelli OFM, who in the last sentence of the document graciously thanks the Rev. Fr. Bugnini CM, a member of the Commission, for the help he gave me in the revision of the drafts. Some twenty-one years later, Fr. Antonelli would also sign the April 3, 1969 decree promulgating Paul VI's Novus Ordo Missae."

3. "The Memoria states specifically that the complete and general revision it envisions cannot be put into practice in a few days and must be carried out in successive phases.

"The reform will begin with the Breviary, followed by the Missal, the Martyrology, and the rest of the liturgical books.

*******"These will be approved at each stage by the pope".*******

"The process will culminate with the promulgation of a Code of Liturgical Law that will be gradually prepared during the work of the Reform and should guarantee its stability."

4. "The Memoria deferred to the Commission's second stage of work such possibilities as introducing a Novus Ordo-style multi-year cycle of scripture readings, using the vernacular, fostering participation, introducing concelebration, or changing the internal structure of the Mass itself."
=========================================================================

All of the above was presented to Pope Venerable Pius XII in 1948 A.D. Therefore, how on earth was Pope Venerable Pius XII out of the loop in regard to the reform of the Roman Liturgy that he launched in 1948 A.D.?

Again, it was declared in 1948 A.D., in regard to the liturgical reforms..."These will be approved at each stage by the pope". However, we are supposed to believe that Pope Venerable Pius XII was not responsible for the very liturgical reform that he launched and approved "at each stage"?

Okay. Sure.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

Peter Lamb said..."With respect, I think you sometimes speak with unnecessary hyperbole which actually distorts for the reader the meaning of what you are saying. Your description of the changes to the fasting rules is a perfect example - describing sensible, legitimate changes as being "radical" "erosive" "overthrowing traditional practices" "liberal", creates a false impression of an innocuous event."

Peter, then I just wish to set the record straight.

1. Traditionalists have claimed that the principle of adjusting the Church to modern man, rather than modern man adjusting to Holy Mother Church and Traditional teachings is liberal.

Example: Traditionalists have bashed our bishops for having moved, for example, Ascension Thursday to Sunday to accommodate the needs of modern mankind. Our bishops insist that modern society has made it difficult for Catholics to observe Holy Days that fall on weekdays. Conversely, Traditionalists have said that such is liberal/modernistic drivel.

2. Pope Venerable Pius XII employed the liberal "modern man" argument when he overthrew the Church's traditional Eucharistic fasts.

Proof of that...Pope Venerable Pius XII declared: "It should nevertheless be noted that the times in which we live and their peculiar conditions have brought many modifications in the habits of society and in the activities of common life.

"Out of these there may arise serious difficulties which could keep men from partaking of the divine mysteries if the law of the Eucharistic fast is to be observed in the way in which it had to be observed up to the present time."

3. I am to understand that that principle is liberal, except when Pope Venerable Pius XII employed that very principle to overthrow the Traditional Eucharistic Fast. Okay. I just wish to get that straight.

Therefore, when Pope Francis employs that principle, it is liberal, modernistic, and disgraceful, according to Traditionalists. But again, when Pope Venerable Pius XII used that principle, it was 100 percent beautiful and orthodox. Okay...I got it.

4. Pope Venerable Pius XII also overthrew the Midnight Eucharistic Fast. However, he did not do that. Correct, Peter?

5. Peter, you described Pope Venerable Pius XII's revolutionary changes to the Church's ancient Traditional Eucharistic Fast teachings as "an innocuous event." Correct, Peter?

Dramatic changes to the Church's teachings that pertain to the Eucharistic teachings are "innocuous". Okay. I got it. Thank you.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

Peter, it is your contention that Pope Venerable Pius XII's was not in any way a liberal. Correct? Now, I just wish to set the record straight.

Traditionalists have bashed His Holiness Pope Francis' in regard to his support of the United Nations Organization and calls for worldwide disarmament. Traditionalists have accused Pope Francis in that regard as being a liberal, modernist, and one-world government supporter.

Peter, in regard to the United Nations Organization, Pope Venerable Pius XII said the following during his 1956 A.D. Christmas Address:

"No one expects or demands the impossible, not even from the United Nations; but one should have a right to expect that their authority should have had its weight, at least through observers, in the places in which the essential values of man are in extreme danger.

"This organization ought also to have the right and the power of forestalling all military intervention of one State in another, whatever be the pretext under which it is effected, and also the right and power of assuming, by means of a sufficient police force, the safeguarding of order in the State which is threatened." *******

"...We desire to see strengthened the authority of the U.N. especially for effecting general disarmament, which We have so much at heart, and on which We have already spoken in other discourses."

"In fact only in the ambit of an institution like the United Nations can the promise of individual nations to reduce armament, especially to abandon production and use of certain arms, be mutually exchanged under the strict obligation of international law." **********

"Likewise only the United Nations is at present in a position to exact the observance of this obligation by assuming effective control of the armaments of all nations without exception..."

Peter, that is not a liberal concept. Correct? To call for nations to surrender it's armaments to the United Nations Organization is what...a conservative principle?

Anyway, Pope Francis should not upset Traditionalists when he calls upon nations to strengthen the United Nations Organization and surrender their armaments to the United Nations Organization as in that regard, he adheres simply to that which Pope Venerable Pius XII declared.

Okay. I got it.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

not upset Traditionalists

Anonymous said...


Pope Francis' supporters are trying hard to make him look like he is not the breaker with Tradition he really is.