Friday, 29 April 2016

Pope must make "a correction!"


"Each individual cardinal, as well as each bishop and each priest is now called to preserve in his field of authority the Catholic Sacramental Order and to confess it publicly. If the pope is not willing to make a correction, it is up to another pontificate to officially put things back into order." Robert Spaemann, Professor of Philosophy
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/full-text-interview-with-robert-spaemann-on-amoris-laetitia-10088/

18 comments:

Dan said...

The silence and/or outright praise for Amoris Laetitia from almost all our bishops and cardinals makes me ill. They are all demonic.

Ana Milan said...

It is no longer feasible for Cardinals & Bishops to continue to ignore the warnings being given about AL. It is evident that they know full well the implications but are too scared to draw upon their authority to do anything to curtail them. The shame is theirs.

vc0staff said...

We do not have to wait to the next pontificate. Nor should we.

Why?

Because charity for the Pope and the Bishops is a duty of all Catholics, and a more urgent duty when the Pope and Bishops need fraternal or filial correction, for either promoting error and immorality or for not doing anything sufficient to stop and/or contradict it.

For this reason we are calling for an International Conference to condemn the errors of 'Amoris Laetitia' and to demand that the document be rescinded.

This is particularly urgent do to the massive international scandal and the millions of sacrilegious communions which it is and will provoke.

We invite one and all to join us!

For more information see: https://vericatholici.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/invitation-to-international-conference-to-condemn-amoris-laetitia/

Mark Thomas said...

We have to hold out hope that His Holiness Pope Francis has not overthrown the Church's teaching on marriage. Actually, it is impossible for anybody to overthrow Jesus Christ's teaching on marriage. One can either accept or reject the teaching on marriage. But nobody has the authority to overthrow Jesus Christ's teaching on marriage.

Therefore, more precisely, we have to hold out hope that Pope Francis has not rejected the teaching in question.

1. We have to hope that he didn't for the sake of his soul.

2. We have to hope that he didn't for the sake of the Church. It is frightening to consider the consequences that would result from such an act. We are talking, of course, about the frightening prospect of schism within in the Church. Of brother versus brother.

3. To add to that horrific possibility is that Pope (Emeritus) Benedict XVI is alive. If Pope Francis has attempted to "overthrow" (I hold out hope that such isn't the case) the Church's unchangeable teaching on marriage, and should Pope Benedict XVI enter the arena on the side of orthodoxy...well, it's not only brother vs. brother, it's Pope vs. Pope. That would only heap horror upon an already horrible situation.

Remain hopeful.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Anonymous said...

I think it is a beautiful document.

Mark Thomas said...

"For more information see: https://vericatholici.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/invitation-to-international-conference-to-condemn-amoris-laetitia/"

I just visited the web site and read that "Veri Catholici...is calling on all Catholics in the world to join us in Rome to condemn the document Amoris Laetitia and its many errors, and to demand from the Pope and Sacred Hierarchy that the document be withdrawn and its errors condemned, formally and canonically."

"...condemn...errors...demand from the Pope..."

That constitutes harsh language as well as serious charges. That is the case in particular when dealing with the Vicar of Christ His Holiness Pope Francis.

I realize that the following will be considered by some as "groveling", but so be it. Holy Mother Church calls us to exercise utmost respect and authority when dealing with each other. We are called by the True Church to interpret in the most favorable light as possible a person's words and actions.

Therefore, please dear brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, let us first approach the issue of Amoris Laetitia in the following fashion:

1. We know that overall state of the family (way beyond that, the entire Church) is engulfed in a deep crisis.

2. Therefore, let's accept that Pope Francis convoked the Synod(s) on the Family and generated Amoris Laetitia with sincerity to aid Catholic families as well, of course, Holy Mother Church.

3. Let us hope that Pope Francis has every intention via Amoris Laetitia to uphold Jesus Christ's/the Church's ancient and unchangeable teachings related to marriage.

4. Although some will find the following diststeful, we must approach Pope Francis with, if you will, hat in hand. We must exercise great care in our approach to the Vicar of Christ.

5. With great respect and favorable language, we may entreat, not "condemn...demand", Pope Francis to comment upon Amoris Laetitia.

Let us consider Pope Francis' very human feelings. It is the old honey vs. vinegar approach. Pope Francis, mindful that he has human feelings, is more likely to respond to us should we approach him in respectful, humble fashion. I doubt that approaching His Holiness (or anybody) in "condemning...demanding" fashion would elicit a response from His Holiness. I don't believe that backing a person into a corner is usually wise.

We also must consider that Pope Francis has made it clear that he's frustrated by the talk and focus that's been placed upon the Synod and Exhortation in regard to Holy Communion for divorced and "remarried" Catholics.

He is tired of that issue, which he noted correctly is not even remotely the most important issue in regard to the overall crisis that has engulfed Catholic family life.

Please let us make our own the heart and mind of the Blessed Virgin Mary. How would the Holy Mother of God approach Pope Francis? The Mother of God would do so in the most humble manner imaginable.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

Fortunately, the situation in question remains hopeful. Please consider the following from Catholic Herald:

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/04/28/amoris-laetitia-footnote-contradicts-churchs-tradition-says-leading-german-philosopher/

In their story about Professor Spaemann's interview, we also find that the Catholic Herald reported that "Cardinals Christoph Schönborn and Vincent Nichols have said the document is in continuity with Familiaris Consortio, while Cardinal Raymond Burke, seen as a leading “conservative” voice at the first family synod, said: “A post-synodal apostolic exhortation, by its very nature, does not propose new doctrine and discipline.”

"Bishop Philip Egan of Portsmouth said last week: 'Does the Pope say the divorced and civilly remarried may now be readmitted to Holy Communion? No.'"

Finally, the Catholic Herald also noted the following hopeful possibility:

"Writing in this week’s Catholic Herald, Fr Raymond de Souza suggests that the footnotes are the result of intervention by the document’s editors. 'I don’t expect the Holy Father himself waded through all 391 footnotes and followed them up.

"He already indicated on the plane that he could not remember the most important one. So the mischief here must be attributed to those who edited Amoris Laetitia,' Fr de Souza writes."

Dear brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, Father de Souza's statement is very hopeful in that if Amoris Laetitia contains something amiss, then it's possible that the fault lies not with His Holiness Pope Francis, but that "the mischief here must be attributed to those who edited Amoris Laetitia."

Let us be hopeful that Pope Francis has upheld personally the Church's teachings in regard to Holy Communion for divorced and "remarried" Catholics...and that somebody else is responsible for the controversy at hand.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Peter Lamb said...

Dear vc0staff, I understand your frustration, but if Bergoglio is a true Pope, then you are wasting your time and money. A true Pope cannot be deposed by any man. The Pope's supreme Authority comes directly from God and only He can take it away.
Vatican I teaches dogmatically:

"And since the Roman Pontiff is at the head of the universal Church by the divine right of apostolic primacy, We teach and declare also that he is the supreme judge of the faithful, and that in all cases pertaining to ecclesiastical examination recourse can be had to his judgment; moreover, that the judgment of the Apostolic See, whose authority is not surpassed, is to be disclaimed by no one, nor is anyone permitted to pass judgment on its judgment. Therefore, they stray from the straight path of truth who affirm that it is permitted to appeal from the judgments of the Roman Pontiffs to an ecumenical Council, as to an authority higher than the Roman Pontiff.
(First Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Pastor Aeternus, Ch. 3; Denz. 1830;

This means that no one can put his own judgment above that of the Pope by refusing to accept the final sentence rendered by the Vicar of Christ on any given matter pertaining to Faith, morals, or discipline, or by presuming to make his teachings, or decisions subject to review, revision, or validation by another. The Pope is the supreme authority in the Church, and for this reason no one can question, appeal from, or overturn his judgment. No one can judge the Pope. Judging — in the canonical (legal) sense — belongs only to a superior, and the Pope, being the highest authority, has no superior on earth. It is for this reason that no one can summon the Pope before a tribunal for questioning, or render any judgment against him. No human is above the Pope, and therefore no human can judge him — not even all the bishops and cardinals together, not even the entire Church Militant.

1917 Code of Canon Law: “Prima Sedes a nemine iudicatur” (Canon 1556) — “The First See is judged by no one.” This is the canonical rendition of Vatican I’s teaching.

"For in matters of faith and morals it was always customary to receive the final sentence from the Apostolic See, whose judgment no one dared to dispute, as the tradition of the Fathers demonstrates. Neither was it ever allowed to reconsider questions or controversies once settled by the Holy See. But even the person of the Supreme Pontiff was ever considered as unamenable to human judgment, he being responsible and answerable to God alone, even though accused of personal misdeeds and crimes... A general council could not judge the Pope, because, unless convoked or ratified by him, it could not render a valid sentence. Hence nothing is left but an appeal to God, who will take care of His Church and its head.
(Rev. Charles Augustine, A Commentary on the New Code of Canon Law, Vol. VII [St. Louis, MO: Herder, 1921], pp. 11-12)

"The Supreme Pontiff has the highest legislative, administrative and judicial power in the Church. The Code states that the Roman Pontiff cannot be brought to trial by anyone. The very idea of the trial of a person supposes that the court conducting the trial has jurisdiction over the person, but the Pope has no superior, wherefore no court has power to subject him to judicial trial."
(Rev. Stanislaus Woywod, A Practical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, rev. by Rev. Callistus Smith [New York: Joseph F. Wagner, 1952], n. 1549, p. 225).

Peter Lamb said...

"The Roman Pontiff is not subject to any power on earth whether civil or ecclesiastical. This follows of necessity from his position as supreme head of the Church, which is subject to no authority save that of Christ alone. “Being supreme head of the Church, he cannot be judged by any other ecclesiastical power, and as the Church is a spiritual society superior to any temporal power whatever, he cannot be judged by any temporal ruler... This doctrine is taught by the Fathers and incorporated in the canons of the Church: “The first See is judged by no one”... This complete exemption of the Roman Pontiff from all civil jurisdiction is of divine institution, for Christ himself conferred it upon St. Peter and his successors, at least implicitly, when He entrusted to them the supreme authority, which necessarily implies such exemption."
(Rev. E. Sylvester Berry, The Church of Christ: An Apologetic and Dogmatic Treatise [London: Herder, 1927], pp. 544-45).
Note: Father Berry points out that the doctrine regarding the Holy See not being subject to anyone’s judgment was already taught by St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), whose teaching on the papacy was adopted in essence — sometimes even verbatim — by the First Vatican Council.

“The superiority of the Church and ecclesiastical power over the State and civil power is verified by the prophecy of Jeremias, ‘I have set thee this day over the nations, and over kingdoms to root up, and to pull down, and to waste, and to destroy, and to build, and to plant’ [Jer 1:10]. Therefore, if the earthly power shall go astray, it shall be judged by the spiritual; and if a lesser spiritual power shall go astray, by its superior: but if the supreme power shall go astray, he can be judged by God alone, not by man, according to the Apostle, ‘The spiritual man judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man’”
(Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam.)

It is extremely important to note that all of the above refers to the judging of a TRUE Pope juridically. It is dogma regarding the PAPACY.

Judging an heretical pope is another matter entirely. It is possible that a true Pope could be a private (occult) heretic, but it is an unlikely theory that it is possible for a true Pope to be a manifest, formal, public heretic. If the man was a heretic before his election, his election would be null and void since he would have already severed himself from the Church and a non-Catholic is not eligible for election - so he would not be a true Pope. After election, a true Pope is protected from error by the Holy Ghost.
An heretical pope CAN be judged. Why? Because he has already DEPOSED HIMSELF by committing the SIN of heresy against the DIVINE LAW. He is no longer Pope, or even a lay member of the Church!
He can then certainly be judged by the proper Church authorities for his CRIME against CANON LAW and if found guilty, be deposed by them in the interests of good Church governance.

So, if you believe Bergoglio to be a true Pope your meeting will be a waste of time and money.
If you believe Jorge to be a false anti-pope - GO FOR IT!

Matthew said...

Anon. 1.34: "I think it is a beautiful document". Are you not aware of its revolutionary potential - and the revolutionary program behind it? Are you not aware that those in the hierarchy who praise the document are using it as a battering ram for the desecration of marriage, and the normalising of sacrilege? Are you not aware that these same men will use it as cover for the sacrilege they already permit/promote in their dioceses - ref. Scönborn. How could a Christian ever regard such devilry as beautiful - no matter how much sugar it is coated in?

Mark Thomas, your comments are interminably long. I cannot read them. I expect I am far from alone. That said, I stumbled on this as I scrolled: "the mischief here must be attributed to those who edited Amoris Laetitia."

What ridiculous, wilful blindness. Of all the tripe I have digested since March 2013, this takes the cake. Mark, either you have lost your senses, or you are deliberately attempting to deceive and confuse, and to dispirit readers of these pages.

Peter Lamb said...

Dear Vox, The first half of my comment didn't get through (unless you deleted it :) ). So if possible, please put it above the half just posted.

Dear vc0staff, I understand your frustration, but if Bergoglio is a true Pope, then you are wasting your time and money. A true Pope cannot be deposed by any man. The Pope's supreme Authority comes directly from God and only He can take it away.

Vatican I teaches dogmatically:
"And since the Roman Pontiff is at the head of the universal Church by the divine right of apostolic primacy, We teach and declare also that he is the supreme judge of the faithful, and that in all cases pertaining to ecclesiastical examination recourse can be had to his judgment; moreover, that the judgment of the Apostolic See, whose authority is not surpassed, is to be disclaimed by no one, nor is anyone permitted to pass judgment on its judgment. Therefore, they stray from the straight path of truth who affirm that it is permitted to appeal from the judgments of the Roman Pontiffs to an ecumenical Council, as to an authority higher than the Roman Pontiff.
(First Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Pastor Aeternus, Ch. 3; Denz. 1830;

This means that no one can put his judgment above that of the Pope by refusing to accept the final sentence rendered by the Vicar of Christ on any given matter pertaining to Faith, morals, or discipline, or by presuming to make his teachings, or decisions subject to review, revision, or validation by another. The Pope is the supreme authority in the Church, and for this reason no one can question, appeal from, or overturn his judgment. No one can judge the Pope. Judging — in the canonical (legal) sense — belongs only to a superior, and the Pope, being the highest authority, has no superior on earth. It is for this reason that no one can summon the Pope before a tribunal for questioning, or render any judgment against him.

1917 Code of Canon Law: “Prima Sedes a nemine iudicatur” (Canon 1556) — “The First See is judged by no one.” This is the canonical rendition of Vatican I’s teaching.

"For in matters of faith and morals it was always customary to receive the final sentence from the Apostolic See, whose judgment no one dared to dispute, as the tradition of the Fathers demonstrates. Neither was it ever allowed to reconsider questions or controversies once settled by the Holy See. But even the person of the Supreme Pontiff was ever considered as unamenable to human judgment, he being responsible and answerable to God alone, even though accused of personal misdeeds and crimes... A general council could not judge the Pope, because, unless convoked or ratified by him, it could not render a valid sentence. Hence nothing is left but an appeal to God, who will take care of His Church and its head.
(Rev. Charles Augustine, A Commentary on the New Code of Canon Law, Vol. VII [St. Louis, MO: Herder, 1921], pp. 11-12)

"The Supreme Pontiff has the highest legislative, administrative and judicial power in the Church. The Code states that the Roman Pontiff cannot be brought to trial by anyone. The very idea of the trial of a person supposes that the court conducting the trial has jurisdiction over the person, but the Pope has no superior, wherefore no court has power to subject him to judicial trial."
(Rev. Stanislaus Woywod, A Practical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, rev. by Rev. Callistus Smith [New York: Joseph F. Wagner, 1952], n. 1549, p. 225).

Peter Lamb said...

Dear Vox, What you have already posted actually says it all. I was really putting on belt and braces. Mark and I are taking up very much space, so please just scrap my first half, if you would prefer to.

Dan said...

While in Saint Peter's Square, consider chanting "Amoris Laetitia stercora est!"

You'll make me very happy.

Mark Thomas said...

Matthew said..."...I stumbled on this as I scrolled: "the mischief here must be attributed to those who edited Amoris Laetitia. Of all the tripe I have digested since March 2013, this takes the cake. Mark, either you have lost your senses, or you are deliberately attempting to deceive and confuse, and to dispirit readers of these pages."

Matthew, I definitely lost my senses today...in a parking lot. Lost a quarter and two pennies...27 senses to be exact.

As to "the mischief here must be attributed to those who edited Amoris Laetitia"...I reported simply the interesting explanation offered by Father Raymond J de Souza, of the Archdiocese of Kingston, Ontario,Canada.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2016/04/28/reading-the-fine-print-in-amoris-laetitia/

In regard to Father de Souza's explanation, I guess that you and I won't reach a con...senses on that. That makes sense...or senses.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

"...join us in Rome to condemn the document Amoris Laetitia and its many errors, and to demand from the Pope and Sacred Hierarchy that the document be withdrawn and its errors condemned, formally and canonically".

Your conference will not achieve its goal. His Holiness Pope Francis wouldn't even consider your proposal. One Cardinal and bishop after another has declared that Amoris Laetitia is orthodox. Not one of them would take your conference seriously.

The overwhelming amount of lay Catholics love His Holiness Pope Francis. You could stand outside parishes prior to and following Mass without having obtained even one signature to your petition. There are tens of millions of lapsed Catholics who wouldn't express a bit of interest in your petition as they aren't interested in the Church.

Therefore, who will sign your petition other than a microscopic amount of Catholic.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Ana Milan said...

I commend vc0staff for what they propose to do. Someone has to take on these sharks and as we cannot depend on our Hierarchy to do so it is left to the laity. I hope that all Traditional websites, blogs etc. will back them fully in confronting this evil and hopefully all that can attend will do so. The success of this mission would be a good request to make to Our Lady at Fatima these coming days - fatima.org are sending the personal requests of their supporters to be left at the various shrines there. I in tend doing so.

Anonymous said...

I do not think the document itself is beautiful. There in some beautiful things in it but the document is seriously flawed. It is chock full of SITUATION ETHICS. The Faithful do have a right to have a Conference to demand the Pope CLARIFY what he means and he pointed on the plane to the Cardinal of Vienna to answer on a Footnote. Two men one a Bishop and one a Theologian who was the Friend of Benedict. These two mince no words so no it is not good.

vc0staff said...

Mark,

All we can say is that you have obviously a lot of persona animus against our Conference, which is scheduled for Sat. June 25...

https://vericatholici.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/alconf-international-conference-to-condemn-amoris-laetitia-june-25th/

to go so far as to accuse us of things and actions of which we have never spoken or advocated...

Sincerely,

VC Staff.